Last weekend, Mrs. Thrill and I had a nice long lunch with a couple of friends.  My friend (who we’ll call “James T.”) and I used to work together until I got promoted to a different section. We started off the conversation by catching-up on some of the recent changes at our organization following a recent merger and exchanged some gossip.  Inevitably, the conversation found its way into politics from there.

James is one of the very few people I know who both supported Trump’s candidacy from the very beginning and wasn’t a Birther.  I don’t know.  Those two just seem to be related.  He’s not very political, not by my standards anyway.  He’s the kind of guy who will see something on cable news and mention it in passing in a sort of “Can you believe what x did over y?  That’s really ____” but he doesn’t dwell on it.

He’s about as invested in politics as most Americans are, I think.  Aware of the headlines of the day either from television or social media, forms a quick opinion on it, and then gets on with more important things.  He’s decidedly center-right, but in no way would you describe him as a partisan to any degree.

The way I might describe him is that he’s a great family man with a huge circle of loyal friends who is highly respected in his field of employment.  Additionally, he has many worthwhile hobbies and interests that bring him joy and happiness.  So you might say that he doesn’t stress too much over political nonsense or invest much of his own happiness into it, you know?

Well, James did have one complaint.  He was just flabbergasted about how “nuts” everyone has become ever since the election and how he had been avoiding talking about anything related to Trump with people he wasn’t very close to.  Until, that is, the day after Trump’s Joint Session Speech.

“I went in to the cafeteria and ran into this one manager from upstairs who I chat with every now and then,” explained James.  “Nice guy.  Most of the time, we just make small talk.  While we were standing there in the line, he asked me what I thought of Trump’s speech.  Before I could stop myself, I said ‘Oh, I liked it!'”

As James described it, the guy got this pained look on his face.  It clearly wasn’t what he wanted to hear.  What followed was about five awkward minutes of them both standing there silently, waiting for their food.  Something tells me that the friendly small talk James and this guy have been exchanging for many months probably isn’t going to continue in the future.  Unfortunately, we call this “normal” in America now.

James didn’t feel good about it and he really couldn’t understand how it got to this point.

“Let me ask you a question,” said James.  “Were we this bad after Obama won?”

Oh, I can just imagine the various reactions of those of you reading this right now.  Must be progressives screaming “YES!  YES, YOU WERE AND YOU KNOW IT!” at their MacBook screens in coffee shops all over the world as young men with complicated mustaches and Harry Potter glasses turn their heads in confusion.

Anyhow, I really did want to say “No, of course not,” from the hip.  Instead, I took a deep breath and looked up at the ceiling for a few seconds before answering: “They think so.”

James made a face that amounted to “Really?”

“This is something I’ve been thinking about too,” I continued. ” I spoke to a lot of Obama supporters after he was elected.  You know, they were so happy and optimistic, while I thought it was the beginning of the end of the world.  I kind of shit on them, I guess.  Then for the next few years, they were constantly bombarded with ‘Benghazi’ and all this other noise like we are with ‘Russia’ now.  Looking back on it, I do think I was pretty annoying and I feel a bit bad about it.”

“Yeah, maybe you’re right.”

“But I do think there’s a certain difference in the, I don’t know, intensity?  Liberal people seem to take politics more personally than we do.  Have you heard about anything about that poll showing how happiness among liberals is down?  I mean, like, they seem to be feeling worse about life in general because of who won the election?  I can’t say that was true in my case when Obama won.”

James didn’t say anything, but he had a thoughtful look as the fried pickles arrived at our table and we moved on to other topics.

Now, I’m willing to admit that those of us who were (and still are) anti-Obama definitely did do and say things that may have killed your buzz after the 2008 election.  Looking at it from your point of view, I see that you were ecstatic to know the Iraq War was finally going to be over after all the polarization that had surrounded it, America was poised to recover its reputation overseas, a new milestone had been reached in race relations with the election of a black president, there was finally an opportunity for real health care reform, and so much more.

Our collective response, more or less?  “He’s a socialist Kenyan and a total empty suit.  Unfit and ineligible for the presidency and we hope he fails.”  Then we stuck to it for the next eight years, attributing every possible evil to the man that we could and seeing a scandal in every event.  From our point of view, it’s perfectly okay because we were right and we can claim his presidency was a failure with Trump’s election and the coming repeal of Obamacare (maybe).  We have also reversed the outcome of the 2008 election and now the GOP is the dominant party.  It’s great.  It’s really, really great.  Or is it?

Yes, we got our way and we won last year, but what happened to us and how we behave toward each other?  The truth is that all of the divisiveness, the hatred, and the vitriol that characterized the Obama era is still here and now most of us on the Right feel that it’s even worse.  Some, very few, of us are getting the horrifying sense that we shortsightedly fed the divisiveness monster for 8 years and now the monster is coming for us.

We may feel like the country is on the right track now, but our relationships with friends and family and co-workers have been strained in many instances.  Which matters more to you?

I’ve admitted that I was part of the problem during the Obama Administration and that I can certainly see that I was annoying, but was I as annoying as you on the anti-Trump side are now?  This is where it gets contentious.  What I will tell you is that it never occurred to me to avoid discussing politics completely with family members or to get rid of friends who voted for Obama.  There was still some possibility for a rational discussion, and even during the Bush years before that.

Nowadays though, I am afraid to talk about politics in person with people who I know or even think might oppose Trump and I don’t even characterize myself as a “Trump supporter”.  Whenever his very name comes up, the anger is just scorching.

You know what’s different?  I get the sense from a lot of anti-Trumpers that if you voted for Trump, you must somehow be a bad person.  You’re a closet misogynist, you’re a homophobe, or you just secretly dislike people who are different from you.   It’s more personal than political.  I honestly don’t know if progressives mean to communicate that, but I have to tell you guys that every conservative on your social media news feeds who reads things you post and share that send that message wonder if you’re talking about them specifically.  It hurts.

I never thought those of you who voted for Obama were bad people, in any way.  I thought you were naive, yes, but the earnest idealism that my progressive friends have and their desire to make the world a better place is what I find most endearing and do respect.  I mean, I think the results of your policies would be awful, but I like your level of engagement, compassion, and thoughtfulness as personal qualities, okay?

It’s with much regret I say that I do think that I have lost friends over this election and not because of any desire of mine.  There were the blunt postings on Facebook from people I’ve known for years that said, “If you voted for Trump, unfriend me now because you obviously care nothing about me since I’m a woman/gay/black/Latino/etc.”  You know, as if that person had not already been a woman/gay/black/Latino/etc for the many years we had been friends.  I hadn’t cared that they voted for a president who wasn’t, shall we say, widely perceived as having an agenda that was especially favorable to heterosexual white Christian males of the middle class.  Hell, we thought he hated us and we said so often when we were being our most annoying.

There are old friends I have not heard from in months and I’m starting to wonder if I ever will again.  Worse, I wonder if I want to.  I can still talk politics casually with my conservative friends, but I don’t know if I can have any conversation whatsoever with my liberal friends without turning the whole luncheon into an awkward game of Minesweeper where instead of mines, you try to avoid any mention of political hot buttons.  It’s a concern if I don’t want them to stop being my friends.  I hate that.

For all of that, I am going to start the discussion off by saying that yes, we conservatives were very annoying and unfair when Obama was president, but that you who on the other side are making it even worse over Trump.  This isn’t to condemn or insult you.  I just want you to look at what’s going on.  I think you guys do make politics more personal, you internalize it hard, and it is affecting the way you feel about life to a degree that is not only hurting your relationships with other people, but it’s hurting you.  It’s not good for anyone to be pissed off that much or for this long.  Why would you give Donald Trump that kind of power over you?

What do you think about this?  Are liberals just giving us back what we gave them for eight years or is this something new and much worse?

Before we start, I should explain that this is a Discourses post.  Whenever you see “Discourses” above the title, it means that the rules are a bit different than they are for other posts here at RVS.  The purpose of a Discourses post and discussion is never to “score points on the other side”, to prove right or wrong, or to have a flame war.  It’s an opportunity to have what, I think, almost all of us feels isn’t possible anymore.  That is, a meaningful and productive conversation with people who disagree with us so we can broaden our own understanding of a topic.

To get an idea of what I mean, if you want to discuss what Susan Rice said on the Sunday morning talk shows after Benghazi, this is the wrong thread for doing that.  This is the thread for talking about how your uncle wouldn’t shut up about Benghazi during the last Independence Day barbecue and was so obnoxious that you haven’t attended one with the family ever since.  You use that to explain how this political climate affects you.

I will work to keep us on track and I will provide moderation if the conversation starts to get nasty, but I don’t think it’ll come to that.  If you’re willing to participate in this discussion, I’d like to believe it’s because you want to start fixing some of those relationships.

Here are some good discussion points to get started.  You don’t have to answer any of these questions to participate, but feel free to use them if they can give you a jumping-off point.

  1.  How has the election outcome affected you personally?
  2. Are both sides equally guilty or is one definitely worse?  Why do you think the way you do?
  3. If you can agree that your side is behaving as asinine or worse than the other side did at another time, do you feel like you are justified in being that way too since trying to be fair and reasonable won’t matter anyway?  For example, if you think conservatives are hypocrites for being willing to believe any conspiracy theories about Obama but have suddenly become the most sober of skeptics with regard to any questionable dealings of Trump’s or his associates, does it tell you that it’s perfectly fair for you to argue in the same way even though you were more a more skeptical personal when Obama was president?  Fair is fair, right?  Or is it?
  4. For those of you from outside the US, has there been anything in recent memory in your country’s politics that you can compare with what Americans are going through now to help us out?  If you’re from the UK, have there been any similar issues with Brexit, for example?
  5. How many people have you unfriended or unfollowed on social media because of the current political climate?  How about in real life?

The things people on the other side tell you here are, more likely than not, the same things your friends and family and acquaintances are feeling too and wish they could tell you.  You might be able to take something you learn here and mend some fences.

UPDATE: A reader shared this article, just published today, that hits all the same notes we’re discussing.  Whatever you’re feeling these days, you’re far from alone.

o

 

 

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santino

For me personally, my wife is American and she still votes. She supported Sanders, and wasn’t really a big Hilary fan, but she ended up voting for Clinton. She was upset that I wasn’t showing any outward signs of disappointment that Trump won the election. I had to remind her that I didn’t vote for him!! It was a quiet few days at home, and a few heated emails were exchanged, but we’re back to normal. We can discuss his antics at home now, but I can calmly present the counter arguments to her without fearing her scorn now. As… Read more »

kevinmkr

This is going to get a few different points off of my chest, I think…. Subjectively speaking, I feel that we’re much worse than you guys were under Obama. I’ll get into that more in a moment but I want to first make the point that this phenomenon seems to have ramped up in my lifetime and, specifically, in the Internet era. You didn’t start it with Obama, I can assure you. As one of the witch burners under the Bush presidency, I can verify that we were pretty vocal, pretty vitriolic, hugely hyperbolic. Perhaps you guys were the same… Read more »

Thrill

Yeah, I kind of have a split household too. My wife equally hated Clinton and Trump. She voted for Jill Stein, of all people. Weird thing with us is that even though we don’t agree on much politically, we don’t strongly disagree much either. I can’t quite explain it. We tend to find common ground on most issues and just don’t bother with the most troubling ones. At first, my kids hated Trump and then they found out I was voting for him. Then they went pro-Trump (they’re in elementary school, give them a break). I was actually horrified by… Read more »

Thrill

My God. This is great! I need time to digest it. LOVE.

Zurvan

I agree with your post almost completely. One difference – I never wanted Obama to fail. I expected him to fail, sure, and for his policies and SCOTUS nominations to bite me in the butt (and they have), but I never wanted to see him become an abject failure as the President – him proving my opinion of him wrong would have been something to celebrate. I care too much about myself and this country for wanting his failure. That, I think, is a major difference between then and now. I think there is a large portion of those on… Read more »

kevinmkr

Ah, damn. Almost made it all the way through without a typo —

“This is before you even consider this policy” should be “This is before you even consider his policy”

Thrill

Yeah, I don’t mean to say that *we* wanted Obama to fail, so much as that’s the perception we may have given off. Rush Limbaugh did bluntly say it, but I never wanted the country to be worse off just to prove a point. I’m sick of politics too, at least, I’m sick of discussing everything as “Republicans are right, Democrats are wrong!” There’s too much of that out there. I absolutely do recommend that people delete Facebook. It’s not good for us and there have been studies that show it is bad for us psychologically even when politics isn’t… Read more »

kevinmkr

This touches on a point that I considered adding to my diatribe. Instead, I’ll add it here. Whether or not liberals are actively rooting for Trump to fail — I think it’s fair to say that they are — there is another weird undercurrent at play. A delusion of sorts — one backed up by media report after media report from “leakers” or “people in the know”. All of them playing on the belief that Trump will somehow step down, lose interest, get impeached or otherwise fail to serve 4 years and that we’re this close to it happening. I’ve… Read more »

kevinmkr

Stuff like this…

https://www.facebook.com/mobymusic/posts/10155085110276108:0

Thanks for “Play”. Now, please, STFU.

Thrill

First off, I will join with you in urging all conservatives to heed what kevin has said here. I can’t emphasize enough that this is the more truthful, open, and fair statement on everything that is happening you will ever read from “the other side” and I’m amazed that it’s right here on our little blog. Please reflect on it and keep it. I think kevin has expressed what millions of disappointed progressives are feeling, but they can’t express it as anything but “Fuck Trump!”. It’s like overload. There’s too much to say. Kevin found the words and gave them… Read more »

Thrill

The one thing I’m NOT questioning about progressives at this moment is that I genuinely think they’re motivated by what they believe to be best for the country and not just “Trump bad! Stop at all costs!”.

All of the substantive arguments are fair: He’s divisive, he’s unqualified, he’s dishonest, he’s wrong–and when I say “wrong” I mean that he favors policies that various studies and expert opinions provide enormous amounts of data clearly demonstrate why he’s wrong.

But he plays on our worst instincts so well….

kevinmkr
Thrill

Yeah, that’s right on point. I need to link it from the top post.

kevinmkr

What’s your temperature of the overall conservative opinion of his first 2 months? I’ve been thinking that he’s pushed through a lot of stuff that seems to justify the votes that he received. Ignoring national polls, do you think that most conservatives are pleased with how things have progressed so far?

Thrill

UPDATE: Added a link shared by kevin to the main post. Recommended additional reading on this topic.

Thrill

Conservatives are happy with Trump and are standing by him. They approve of his efforts to deliver on his campaign promises and they’re actively defending him from attacks on Russia and other things. I’d characterize morale as “high” and I don’t see it ebbing anytime soon.

Unfortunately, the more he gets attacked from the Left and strikes back, the more conservatives will rally to him. Even when you guys provide valid counterpoints, I fear we’ve lost the ability to hear you.

The stage is set for our hubris to introduce trouble in the second act.

kevinmkr

Thanks for the feedback. It’s what I was expecting but I’d rather know than assume. It helps set expectations and prepare me for conversations with those who are convinced that the GOP is conspiring for his ouster.

Thrill

Ha, ha! I’ll go on with that. Conservatives absolutely believe that the GOP Congress is unreliable and wants to thwart Trump, possibly for the same reasons Democrats do. However, the GOPe is scared to death to be seen as opposing Trump because they know he’ll come after them hard if they do. Think about it; if he’ll blast John McCain on his strongest attribute–being a war hero–you can imagine how “no-limit” he would go on anyone lesser. I mean, McCain was our presidential nominee in 2008. He gets no mercy from Trump and conservatives laugh about it. The conservative base… Read more »

Zurvan

Many Conservatives (not Republicans) think McCain is anything but conservative (me included). He should never have been the nominee in 08.

I will support Trump, only so far as he puts forth conservative principles. This shit sandwich the GOP just handed us in Obamacare Lite is certainly not going to help if he tries to convince everyone it’s the greatest thing EVAR!

Thrill

Yeah, I’m with you. If it’s Trump vs Congress, I’m siding with Trump. I know how they are and at least when HE lies, it’s to further his goals. They lie and don’t do shit.

That fight IS coming. Liberals will at least get to enjoy watching from the sidelines.

Thrill

Seriously, if Trump vetoes this awful pretend Obamacare repeal, I’ll cheer him for it.

Liberals were personally invested in Obama, and expected his legacy to continue under Hillary (establishment liberals, anyway.) Then the old orange guy won, and now it seems you have to walk on eggshells even if you were a moderate Republican who only supported Trump because he was the nominee.

Politics has always been personal to people, which is why most people avoid it with strangers. Is it any different with Trump or is it just more out in the open because people vent and kvetch on social media?

It’s the Republican version of “support this BS and help us keep our phony baloney jobs.” Paul Ryan’s messy fingerprints are all over this.

mashav

Oh, man, so much here. I think the internet makes everything worse. The fake news spreads faster (and there is some on both sides, but there is more on the right. The Macedonians who run those sites found that they weren’t making any money off the left-leaning fake news.) The anonymity of the medium makes people say stuff they would never say in person. We get to interact with people we never run into irl, as well as surround ourselves with people just like us, so that every feeling is justified because there are other people who feel the same… Read more »

Thrill

That’s an excellent question. 10 years ago, most of the stuff like this that got shared was on blogs like yours or Right-Thinking. You had a relatively small number of people who would find some content that they liked, share with some commentary for their readers, and discuss it a bit. Thing was that you had to build a following, but most people could do it on a blogspot site, if nothing else. Then along comes social media and suddenly, it’s incredibly easy to do the same thing as bloggers do. The shitty part is that your friends and family… Read more »

Thrill

For your first paragraph, what do you think of the comments between westvirginiarebel and I right above yours on social media’s impact as sort of making one’s social media family and friends virtual unwilling participants to what used to be blogging? I’m wondering if it’s this that’s making things seem so much worse and more present. I mean, I don’t go to Daily Kos every day (though I do subscribe to it in Feedly). But when I go looking for it, I know what I’m looking for, I read what I want, for my own reasons. You put it on… Read more »

1. i slowed down my Ammo buying rate… breathed a bit easier after it was final…..but personally, not much has changed… 2. the Lib side is a bit worse, why? Republicans/conservatives never went in for the mass rally protests, and i cant think of any teaparty rally that broke down into rioting violence ect ect….The name calling this time around and jsut insane ranting is far worse than under bush. given the rights batshit birther crap was annoying as hell, but it was fed by the O’s administration simply refusing to prove them wrong for such a long time The… Read more »

Thrill

5. You do post a lot of politics, but I always noticed you’d be pretty evenhanded. Being a Libertarian, you don’t have to carry Republican or Democrat water.

the last 2 months i have found my self very happy with trump to yelling WTF at the monitor …. i vary from oh hell Trumps a cagey brilliant nut job, to h’s a fucking spastic arrogant jerk.

Thrill

One thing I remember was how dwex–you know, raving social liberal but small government libertarian–was always laughing at how he criticized both sides all the time (mostly Republicans), but whenever he’d badmouth Obama he would lose a liberal friend.

It was the liberals who were quicker than the supposedly narrow-minded conservatives to close him off for presenting an opposing point-of-view. As a liberal guy, I don’t think he ever knew exactly how to handle that except to chuckle at it and shake his head.

Thrill

Sort of interesting where everybody is landing on the question. Let me know if I have this right so far: Santino says it was worse at first over Trump, but has gotten back to normal. Kevin says it’s worse now, but that’s because Trump legitimately is the worst thing that could have happened. Zurvan says it’s worse now and I think we’re in the closest agreement. westvirginiarebelsays it’s worse AND has thrown in an interesting question that it may just be social media that’s making it seem worse than it is. mashav believes that it’s already been bad for 20… Read more »

santino

Just an aside that I forgot to mention. When I first saw the post I saw the headline and read the first sentence and thought it was going to be about having children. I was all ready to confess about how annoying I was as a child.

Zurvan

I’ve noticed that too, Kevin. It’s very strange, many people (mostly on the left, but I’ve seen it from Republicans) are counting down the days before Trump is either impeached or just gets bored and resigns. I don’t think they are looking at this realistically. I don’t think Trump is dumb enough to do anything, or at least get caught doing anything worthy of real impeachment, and as long as he has his Twitter account, he’s not going to get bored.

Thrill

Oh, if only it were that simple. Annoying kids are easy…when they’re actual kids. We’ve become a whole society of annoying children.

Zurvan

Btw, I have yet to hear a single Trump voter explain to me how Obama hurt them That’s an easy one. My health insurance deductible has gone from $0 with 100% coverage before Obamacare was signed to $6,500 per person in my household. That’s right, I have to pay $6,500 for each person before anything is covered. And after that, I have to pay another 20% up to a maximum of $13,000 per person before we hit the out of pocket maximum..per person. If two of my kids have bad hospital stints in a year, I’m screwed. That was 100%… Read more »

same here! LOL, i had a moment last week. M youngest son was tryign to explain something to me about a game he was playing on his tablet, i was uh hu yep ok uh hu.. with no clue what he was talking about.. then it hit me, my dad did the same thing when i tried to expalin some game on the old Atari or NES… lol

Zurvan

People as described in the opening paragraphs of that article are 100% where the term “snowflake” came from. And I’d say they’ve earned it.

mashav

You are probably right that some people don’t want to see political posts interrupting their cat video feed. But it’s very easy to block someone from your feed, rather than being a captive audience. I honestly don’t get that last argument about the shy supporters. I have never in my life been embarrassed by my vote to the point where I would not admit to it in public, let alone to an anonymous pollster. Did the pollsters call Trump supporters homophobes, too? If you have good reasons to vote for Trump, which do not involve stupidity or bigotry, why not… Read more »

Thrill

Folks on the Left are in this bizarre netherworld somewhere between Wishful Thinking and Abject Despair. I don’t really think their position is as bad as they think, but I’m really surprised how long it’s taking for them to snap out of the collective disarray. Remember the last episodes of Wishful Thinking? How about how Jill Stein’s recount was going to reverse everything? Whoops, Trump managed to gain votes in Wisconsin. Well, what about the idea of persuading the “faithless electors”? Nope. More of Clinton’s electors ending up refusing to vote for her than Trump’s did to him. Alright, how… Read more »

Thrill

Yeah, I think “Unfollow” is the best option, but you’re still shutting off communication. My sister is currently posting something like 6-10 anti-Trump posts per day. My wife (who voted for Jill Stein, I think I’ve mentioned that) finally couldn’t take anymore and unfollowed her last week. For my part, I think it’s completely hilarious. I get that you’re not embarrassed by your own vote, but I’ll tell you straight up that you’ve already said on this thread that you think Trump supporters are “dumb” and that voting for Trump would be “actively hurting you”. If I knew you in… Read more »

mashav

Are you covered under Obamacare? Because my insurance changed very similarly to yours, but mine is employer-provided coverage, so Obama had nothing to do the price hike. Yes, it now covers older dependants, but the rest of the riders got worse, not better. There was never a pre-existing condition exclusion, maternal care was always in, but we lost allergy treatments, for example.
My anger is aimed squarely at the insurance companies, not at Obama.
I appreciate your answer, this exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping for.
I really do want to understand the motivations on the other side.

mashav

I don’t want to split hairs over your definition of ‘dumb’ v. ‘naive with awful consequences.’ I believe that your attitude towards Obama voters is just as patronizing and off putting as mine is toward Trump voters. You say Hillary was going to hurt you. I say Trump is going to hurt me. I see the two statements as equal in moral judgement. You see it as persecution. I get that the media has been on my side for a very long time, but remove that variable and what’s the difference between what we’ve said? Why am I still willing… Read more »

kevinmkr

It’s so hard to differentiate between the mosquitoes and the gnats sometimes. Is this thing really that bad or am I just annoyed by it? Masha and I were discussing the other night the “horrible” things that we got upset about regarding Romney. “47%”. Oh, how DARE he! I mean, I’m not trying to throw my peers under the bus — though not terribly productive, it is nonetheless normal to attack every opposition candidate and every cabinet appointee and every judicial nominee. But that type of behavior causes quite a numbing effect. If we oppose everybody on the opposite side… Read more »

kevinmkr

God, yes.

Thrill

No, I shouldn’t say Trump is a victim at all. However, conservatives do feel like they get bullied by the other side simply for having a different viewpoint at the individual level and at the national political level. If we support a candidate the other side doesn’t like, we get called “dumb” and accused of trying to harm people. I mean, if I’m a kid and I see the classroom bully, I’m going to stay quiet and invisible. I don’t want his attention. If I’m a grown-up and I see someone who I know is going to insult me and… Read more »

Zurvan

Everyone is technically covered under Obamacare whether it’s employee provided or not. Plans changed in order to conform with the new law – the primary reason why “if you like your plan, you can keep your plan” was BS from the very start. Obamacare has everything to do with the price hikes. Why do you think insurance companies went from opposing the law to suddenly supporting it after meeting with Obama’s administration behind closed doors? “You’re going to pass a law that forces people to sign up for coverage with our companies, and allow us to hike prices? Where do… Read more »

Zurvan

To add on to that – Personally, and I first said this when the law was being debated in 2009, I think Obamacare was passed with the possible intention of exactly what has happened. I don’t think Democrats who passed it necessarily wanted it to fail as it has with such incredible price hikes, and failure of the public exchanges. But the fact is, liberals have wanted a public option for as long as I can remember – Democrat politicians have been on record for this going back to at least HillaryCare. The public at the time of Obamacare was… Read more »

Thrill

I’m not in love with our blockquotes. I’m going to use italics for quotes. “ I believe that your attitude towards Obama voters is just as patronizing and off putting as mine is toward Trump voters.” Yes, I can see that. That’s why I included this in the post:: “ I spoke to a lot of Obama supporters after he was elected. You know, they were so happy and optimistic, while I thought it was the beginning of the end of the world. I kind of shit on them, I guess. ” And this: “ yes, we conservatives were very… Read more »

Thanks for summing up here. I have been trying to jump in but each post is more and more to digest.

I fall somewhere between Kevin and Mashav on this. I will elaborate on my impressions soon.

Thrill

I’m loving the participation. This is clearly something people have been wanting to talk about!

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