By now, you’re aware that opponents of Trump’s Travel Ban managed to find a federal judge who was willing to place a temporary restraining order to prevent it from taking effect today.   As you know, my opinion is that it’s better for everyone if we just get it out of the way, but nobody cares.

Hilariously, this has led to supporters of the Travel Ban taking to Twitter and trending #BoycottHawaii.  Really, nobody should be threatening to “boycott Hawaii” over this topic.  The people in that state have absolutely no impact on what an activist judge does.

In fact, the lack of judicial accountability is part of the problem.  I don’t know what anyone there is supposed to do.  Throw pineapples at the judge’s house?

An explanation of the judge’s flawed reasoning in applying this is over at The Federalist. I haven’t reviewed the ruling for myself just yet, but I suspect that Mollie Hemingway’s observations are correct, particularly with regard to the judge’s likely interpretation of Trump’s motive as the reason that the Travel Ban is harmful.

For this, Trump has nobody to blame but himself.  Inflammatory statements might make for more exuberant rallies and entertaining news show interviews, but sooner or later, he will always find that he’ll have to defend them in front of responsible people who have to make decisions over the impact of his policies.

I disagree with this ruling, but it’s very much a rake Trump left sitting out for himself to step on months ago.

 

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Judge dredd, pro se

I think a world with a travel ban is a sad state of affairs.

That said, did judge Watson just make a legal decision that if you say something he consider’s bigoted on TV that it is secretly the driving force behind your policy decision making abilities?

I think he did.

Thrill

Well, sure it’s sad but presidents are going to place travel bans against countries at various times for various reasons. To say that a president cannot levy a travel ban against a state sponsor of terrorism or one that has an active insurgency underway is an overreach.

But I hope Trump now understands why he can’t keep running his mouth without consequences. Federal judges can’t be moved with a few angry tweets. It works on the media, congressmen, and the like, but not people who don’t need ratings or votes.

It’s unbelievable to me that a President’s actual legal powers can differ from one President to the next based on the statements (free speech!) of the individual occupying the office, made in his capacity as a private citizen prior to taking office. Based on the legal logic, Barack Obama could have issued this EO with no problem, but the exact same EO issued by Trump is unconstitutional. I cannot imagine this would even be contemplated by the framers.

mashav

You’d have to boycott Maryland, too. I am waiting for the right to bring up how the judges and procesutors aren’t real Americans because of their ancestry.
I mean, I am sure it’s there already, but I don’t read 4chan.
Boycotting Hawaii is a lot like boycotting Hamilton. How many of the boycotters were ever going to go? Much like my personal boycott of Trump’s DC hotel – I was never going to spend that money 🙂

mashav

I think the point is that the President has the legal power to issue a ban to protect Americans, but he doesn’t have the power to issue a ban to target a specific religion. His past statements and Rudi’s little story in particular prove that the intent of the ban is not the former. I was on board with warlock Thrill’s plan to have the let the ban ride to convince your base that legal immigrants aren’t out to kill them, so I am not out there in my hijab celebrating these decisions. But Trump does need to learn to… Read more »

Thrill

Yeah, right? It’s like me wanting wanting to boycott the NFL when I hate football.

Zurvan

I read an interesting statistic – Hawaii hasn’t taken in a single refugee from Syria since the situation started. The Governor is on record as saying they would take some in, but haven’t…How about we send them all there?

I think the point is that the President has the legal power to issue a ban to protect Americans, but he doesn’t have the power to issue a ban to target a specific religion.

This is true, but the EO does not do so. It’s a terrible rabbit hole to look beyond that to personal statements with debatable relevance and ambiguity to suss out a motive and use that instead of the plain language of the order.

mashav

There were some awesome memes when the right was boycotting Nordstrom’s over the Ivanka dropping.
I mean, they were horrible in perpetuating the stereotypes that divide this great country. But hilarious.

Zurvan

Using this logic, then every EO that Obama ever signed regarding gun control should have been frozen by the courts because Obama was on record for disparaging gun owners (“cling to their guns…” etc.).

mashav

Gun ownership is not a legally recognized religion. Yet.
Technically, gun owners are not a protected class.

“shall not be infringed”

Thrill

Foreigners living in other countries aren’t a protected class either. Nor does the Constitution apply to them. At least it didn’t, until the 9th Circuit said so with the last travel ban.

This probably won’t get resolved until Gorsuch is confirmed.

mashav

I am sure Syrian refugees will be happy to take you up on your offer of a ticket to Hawaii. Shall I get you some names directly from my neighbourhood (it snowed again here) or do you want to set up some sort of a lottery?
The plaintiff in the Hawaii case is an Egyptian/Syrian family.
I am pretty sure the main limiting factor in getting refugees to Hawaii is the same as that in getting me to Hawaii – the cost of the flight.

mashav

It’s also not about disparaging Muslims, it’s about being on record as wanting to ban them from entering the country. And asking Rudi how to get around the fact that that’s illegal.

Thrill

it does sound like an “Everybody Wins” scenario. I like those.

mashav

I would argue that asking Rudi how to institute a Muslim ban without using the word is relevant. Rudi told that story on TV, the other statement was part of his official presidential platform.
Why is it that Podesta’s emails are fair game since he used to be a public servant, but Trump’s official campaign platform is a personal statement made by a private citizen?

mashav

The plaintiffs are Muslims living the the US. Their right to see their family is in question in the Hawaii case.

mashav

Speaking of ‘Everybody Wins,’ have I mentioned that my favourite solution for solving jihadism is a mass hooker airlift to the Middle East?

Thrill

I’m trying to remember who it was. Might have been Michael Savage. Whoever it was, he said we needed to airdrop pornography and liquor on them to get them to loosen up or something.

Not a bad idea, but there are plenty of whores, drinks, and skin mags in South Chicago and it doesn’t make it any more peaceful.

Thrill

I want to say that their family hasn’t visited in over a decade. This is one I think should have been hard to prove standing, if it’s the case.

I’m swamped in some work I need to get back to, but should have time to read into this later. I need to get the facts right.

Judge dredd, pro se

Congress shall pass no law…..

Federal judges, on the other hand are free to add articles of faith like “the golden rule” into sappy activist decisions with impunity.

Judge dredd, pro se

Lodestar was being tried in the court of public opinion and trump’s executive order is being restrained due to what a federal judge “thinks trump thinks.”

These are not the same things.

Thrill

But there is no religious preference in this ban (there was in the previous one). A blanket Muslim Ban is out of the question, but the president is empowered by Congress to stop immigration from countries with majority-Muslim countries if there are reasons for doing so.

The judge is just of the opinion that Trump’s views on Muslims are the whole reason for the ban. That’s wrong and has nothing to do with the legal substance of the ban, though it admittedly is Trump’s fault for poisoning that well.

Judge dredd, pro se

So really what this all means is instead of China entering into an arms race to invade the United States they should define communism as s religion and a judge would be compelled to allow anyone in a mao shirt quarter.

Judge dredd, pro se

Imagine if this decision was in 1945. You wouldn’t be able to stop German immigration in the event of a war if the oresident remarked that he didn’t trust lutherans.

mashav

I think you’d get the exact number of Chinese entering as you do now. There’s no ban on communists.

mashav

Dan Savage? Chicago is a lot less prone to attacking other countries, beheadings, mass graves. I would take Chicago over Mosul any day.

Thrill

No, Michael Savage. Talk radio host. It does sound like something Dan Savage would say though.

Zurvan

You do see that calling this a “Muslim ban” is asinine, right? There are somewhere near a billion Muslims in the world that don’t live in those six countries, so calls in the media and the left against this because of Muslims or religion is willfully disingenuous.

Zurvan

I am pretty sure the main limiting factor in getting refugees to Hawaii is the same as that in getting me to Hawaii – the cost of the flight.

Actually, the main limiting factor is that the state has not put in writing that they will accept Syrian refugees, despite the sentiment that they would do so.

Regarding cost…if you are flying someone almost 12,000 miles from Syria to the US at a cost of somewhere around $60,000 already (for some reason), that extra 2,400 miles is not what is breaking the bank. That’s silly.

Judge dredd, pro se

The point I’m making is that due to this legal precedent if a chinaman walks into a gay bar with a rifle and kills as many gays as he possibly can because communists hate gays we’d be powerless to prevent it from happening again if china simply called communism a religion. It’s a ridiculous legal decision to neuter the president’s ability to make national security decisions because our constitution protects non-citizens religious freedoms. Our constitution says we can’t establish a law that determines a faith. It does NOT say we can’t protect ourselves from one that has openly declared itself… Read more »

Judge dredd, pro se

I visited Maui in 2014 and was both told and saw with my own eyes that the largest immigrant population there is….. Mexicans! They work the tourism industry.

There’s so many that Hawaii offers direct flights to Mexico on most airlines.

As for Syrian refugees I’d be all for it. It would be a spectacular bit of schadenfreude to see muslims desecrate luaus, protest leis and school events that celebrate Hawaiian culture because that is, after all, a faith.

mashav

The man who walked into the gay bar in question was a natural born US citizen, so yeah, there’s not much we can do in that case.
Because, otherwise, the next time a white Christian male walks into a black church or a movie theater and shoots it up, what do we do, ban all men? All white Christian men?

mashav

I am not calling it a Muslim ban. Trump did. This is the Giuliani quote: “I’ll tell you the whole history of it: When he first announced it, he said ‘Muslim ban.’ He called me up, he said, ‘Put a commission together, show me the right way to do it legally.’” I am aware that there are a lot of other Muslims in the world. There are also a ton of other countries with with bad record keeping, which are not on the list. I am further aware that there have been zero lives lost on US soil to terrorists… Read more »

Zurvan

I was asking your opinion on the term “Muslim ban” in regards to these two specific EO’s. I never claimed, nor intended to claim you thought it was a “Muslim ban”.

I’m pretty sure Trump called for A Muslim ban as part of a hyperbolic statement during a presidential election (Just like I don’t honestly think Hillary Clinton considers me as one of the enemies she is most proud of because I was a Republican). The left and the media conflated that statement with his proposed immigration ban, to my knowledge, Trump never did.

mashav

I agree with Thrill that this ban is window dressing for the sake of the base. I believe that the people it’s meant to placate actually do think of it as a Muslim ban. won’t pretend to know what Trump himself thinks this thing is. I am not sure he’s read it.
I agree that it does not ban of all Muslims from entering the US. I am not sure if the far-right or the jihadists make that distinction.
I guess the best I can come up with is it’s a ‘dog whistle Muslim ban.’ Does that work?

mashav

The $60,000 is not the cost of the flight. That’s the whole resettlement, housing, etc. And that number is in dispute.
I don’t know the procedures are for states to accept refugees. Do you have a link at hand that proves that they have to put something in writing? I remember some states trying to get out of it by declaring that they would refuse to take refugees, it seems like all they would have had to do is not put whatever it is in writing?

mashav

Why would they desecrate luaus? I live in Dearborn and I’ve not seen one one Muslim desecrate a BBQ joint, any school event or a menorah or a Xmas tree. A crazy man tried to come here and burn a Koran, but otherwise, it’s pretty chill.

Zurvan

Why would they desecrate luaus?

You think they need a reason beyond half-naked women *gasp* dancing??

OK

In ancient Hawaii, men and woman ate their meals apart. Commoners and women of all ranks were also forbidden by the ancient Hawaiian religion to eat certain delicacies. This all changed in 1819, when King Kamehameha II abolished the traditional religious practices. A feast where the King ate with women was the symbolic act which ended the Hawaiian religious tabus, and the luau was born.

Close enough to religion for a nutbag with a bomb.

mashav

Dearborn is full of strip clubs. Again, no one is ‘desecrating’ them beyond the usual.
I assumed dredd meant the pork.
Why do you think the Muslims are running around destroying other religions in their adoptive countries? Have you ever met a Muslim?

Zurvan

I don’t know what the formal process is, but back in 2015 the Governor is on record as saying they should take in refugees (he took a lot of local flack for that), but to this day, Hawaii has taken in exactly zero from any middle east country. So saying that, but not doing it makes me think of “if you like your health plan, you can keep your health plan”. They have a huge problem with homeless already due to the stupidly high cost of living, so out of the public spotlight, I’m sure politicians on the island don’t… Read more »

Zurvan

Why do you think the Muslims are running around destroying other religions in their adoptive countries? No reason. Islamist militants in Iraq and Syria continue their war on the region’s cultural heritage, attacking archaeological sites with bulldozers and explosives. The so-called Islamic State (ISIS) released a video that shocked the world last month by showing the fiery destruction of the Temple of Baalshamin, one of the best-preserved ruins at the Syrian site of Palmyra. Last weekend, explosions were reported at another Palmyra temple, dedicated to the ancient god Baal; a United Nation agency says satellite images show that larger temple… Read more »

mashav

My understanding is that the resettlement past the point of entry is largely handled by NGOs and sponsors. They ask you where you want to go, if you have family or friends you want to be close to, then try to get you there. That’s how you get large enclaves like the Muslims where I live, the Jews in NYC, the Asians in California. Most of the ‘Governor declares that he welcomes refugees’ is just politics for local consumption. The States can’t deport someone into a neighboring state once they are in the country legally. If no Syrians are asking… Read more »

mashav

That’s why I said ‘adoptive country.’ The people coming here as refugees are trying to get away from those assholes. If they agreed with it, they would have stayed there.

Zurvan

Most are, and they are in a terrible situation. Some aren’t. http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2017/01/feds-blame-lapse-vetting-admitting-syrian-refugees-terrorist-ties-u-s/ Dozens of Syrian refugees already living in the Unites States may have ties to terrorism and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is downplaying it, claiming federal agents missed “possible derogatory information” about the immigrants due to “a lapse in vetting.” Among those who slipped through the cracks is a man who failed a polygraph test after applying to work at a U.S. military installation and another who communicated with an Islamic State leader. And in Europe. German police have arrested three Syrian men suspected of being deployed… Read more »

mashav

That’s where we disagree. There is a difference between the US ans Europe, because they can’t just walk over here, so all of our refugees are vetted. If you consider the statistical probability of being killed by a refugee terrorist from one of these countries (it’s never happened here in the US) and weigh it against the humanitarian need of the actual people, there is no way to make the case that we don’t take a single one. But most importantly, the San Bernardino, Orlando and Fort Lauderdale attacks, the only ones you mention which occurred on US soil, were… Read more »

Zurvan

I had the same thought today. “Now I need to boycott McDonalds! What idiots!” Then I remembered that I voluntarily stopped eating their “food” several years ago for the sake of my taste-buds and health.

Zurvan

There is a difference between the US ans Europe, because they can’t just walk over here, so all of our refugees are vetted.

Read the first link.

But most importantly, the San Bernardino, Orlando and Fort Lauderdale attacks, the only ones you mention which occurred on US soil, were perpetuated by native born US citizens

I never claimed otherwise.

Judge dredd, pro se

If that white Christian male was part of a death cult that swore an alliwgence to destroy America I’d say it was fair game. Seriously? Even Europeans have started deporting naturalized radical clerics: is there any point you might be able to acknowledge not all muslims fit neatly into your “my Muslim neighbors in Dearborn” meme?

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