Of all of the adjectives I could apply to the violence at the Unite the Right rally in Virginia, “unimaginable” would be quite low on the list. No, I’m sorry to say that it was pretty imaginable. Predictable even, considering how these Antifa/BLM and White Nationalist/Alt-Right/Whatever fools both keep escalating their mutual hatred with relish at every new opportunity.
A few months ago, there were some on the Left who were amused to see Richard Spencer get punched. After that, it was somehow considered to be a noble on righteous thing to “punch a Nazi”. This attitude was circulated even by a lot of usually-respectable people who should have known better. Noam Chomsky tried to warn the Left about the folly of holding this attitude, but it fell on deaf ears. Then came the Berkeley riot and now this.
The more extreme elements of the Left, struggling with the idea that they are losing politically, have embraced violence as an acceptable form of “resistance”. In the White Nationalist, they’ve found a happy enemy. Nazis are and always have been thugs. If street violence is what Antifa and its ilk wants, they’ll find plenty of it and more people will die in the course of whatever it is they think they’re trying to accomplish.
No, I’m not blaming the victims in Charlottesville. Heather Heyer was just crossing the street at the wrong time, by all accounts. I also don’t believe that all of the people who were injured were participating in violent acts (although some definitely were). Again, I don’t think what Heather Heyer’s murderer did was justified, but I will never stop reminding everyone that violence begets violence.
This is why I consistently condemn the violent rhetoric coming from both sides. Every time some brutal act occurs whether it is a protester getting assaulted at a Trump rally, an attendee at a Trump rally getting assaulted, a Republican Congressman getting shot, or protesters getting run down it should be taken by the American public as a warning. It’s a chance for us to reassess the path that we’re on and agree that the extremists on both sides must be condemned and abandoned. Even now, I’m saying that it’s not too late and we can resolve our differences peacefully. We’re a long, long way from another civil war, contrary to what some believe.
Of course, the violence isn’t going to stop anytime soon. I don’t know when–or even if–sanity will reassert itself. Both sides will point to Charlottesville as proof of the other side’s fundamental wickedness and use it to justify ever greater violent acts.
The Right sees the Left’s calls for violence not only as a challenge, but also a dream come true. They feel embattled and threatened as the prospect of a “white genocide” circulates among their favorite message boards. Inevitably, whenever left-wing protesters start punching “Nazis”, they end up punching perfectly normal white people who aren’t involved in the Alt-Right nor do they agree with anything it stands for.
White Nationalists love it when this happens for the same reason ISIS likes it when there’s a backlash against Muslims in Western countries following a terrorist attack by an Islamic radical. It polarizes those communities against each other. It forces people to take a side and spurs them to join the fight. ISIS wants Muslims to think that living peacefully isn’t an option in infidel lands. White Nationalists want whites to think that they can’t really live in peace with minorities and their liberal sympathizers and that they will have to protect themselves.
Witness that they’re already claiming that the killer acted in self-defense or maybe he “panicked”. That Antifa had surrounded his car and that he was in fear of his life. They’re not the least bit sorry that Heyer was killed. This violence isn’t senseless when either side does it. It has a purpose, it’s just that it doesn’t serve the interests of sane or decent people so it’s still hard for us to grasp what it all means.
The challenge is mostly on local governments to decide what they do to ensure public safety during protests. If there’s one lesson I hope they learn from Charlottesville, it’s that all protesters should be disarmed of anything that could be used as a weapon, vehicle traffic should be contained, and outbreaks of fighting should prompt an immediate forceful response by police. This was preventable, I say. As preventable as it was predictable.
I hate to say it, but the wingnuts on both sides cannot be trusted to restrain themselves. I think they’ll do far worse before all is said and done, if allowed to. Local and state governments are going to have to use violence where appropriate to keep them from killing each other and normal people in our streets. Violence isn’t speech and deserves no constitutional protection nor should it ever have approval from the public.
I feel pretty passionately that this act should be condemned on its own terms, without the tit-for-tat “well they did it too” rhetoric that seems to have permeated through almost ALL conservative media regarding this story. This group is something the trump campaign openly courted, pandered to, and called to arms with his campaign rhetoric and Breitbart’s dedication to “white plight” sensationalism. I don’t get angry at the hypocrisy of the conservatives pearl clutching over the incident. That’s almost a passé reaction to what has happened here. No one gets off the hook for this in my mind. Conservatives, republicans,… Read more »
To all that, I’ll just ask why Democrats never have to denounce Antifa. That and BLM have become the mainstream face of the Democratic Party, far removed from simply being allowed in the door.
When you try to hand-wave the existence of far-Left elements and ignore their own role in provoking this violence, you send the message that you approve of it, because “Nazis”.
I’m saying NONE of it is okay and I won’t excuse any political violence. You shouldn’t either.
Semi-related. Looks like Sessions is going after these left wing “protest” groups hard.
https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/14/16145812/justice-department-disruptj20-trump-website-warrant
Now Confederate memorials are getting destroyed. That’s fine. If people want to take out their angst on inanimate objects instead of people’s skulls, let them.
http://www.heraldsun.com/news/local/counties/durham-county/article167201667.html
I haven’t defended or drawn any kind of relative defense for antifa’s role in the weekend’s violence. Whether it was lapse security, lack of permit enforcement or whatever there is absolutely no defense for this act of terrorism. I don’t think these white nationalists right to peacefully assemble should be infringed upon. I don’t think there is any benefit to commit acts of violence should they peacefully protest. There’s no justification for anyone on the left that did. What is at issue here is specifically what this man did,, killing someone else. There shouldn’t be anyone trying to muddy the… Read more »
I’m not “keeping score” of violence though. If this is about terrorism, the terroristic violence of Antifa was exactly what led to this happening. The White Nationalists had a legal right to assemble and to be where they were. Antifa and the rest showed up with no permit and armed with baseball bats and other weapons. Once the WN were kicked out of the park by the police, they were attacked by Antifa. The way Antifa behaved was terroristic. That should be clear. To me, it’s far less clear that Fields was out to commit an act of terrorism. I’m… Read more »
Wow. Just wow. At 54 minutes Trump calls out “the Alt Left” and defends the Right Wing protesters (who aren’t white supremacists, apparently).
Ballsy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3040&v=lj5RyIiClEg
Ballsy? That’s your response? Disgusting. But this was the guy sufficient people voted for. They’re getting exactly what was advertised.
So long as the right enables and embraces Nazis (including by voting for and supporting Trump) then others have a duty to stand up against it. You don’t appease Nazis. Fuck Nazis and fuck those who equate them with those protesting against them. And fuck those who can’t differentiate Nazis (“whites are the master race”) with BLM (“stop killing black people”). Disgusting.
What’s disgusting about it? I find it disgusting that people are lying about what happened in Charlottesville and ignoring that the violence was not in any way one-sided. I find it disgusting that many people feel that violence is justified when the intended target is “a Nazi” or “might be a Nazi” or “kind of looks like a Nazi”. I agree with what Trump said and yes, I think it was a ballsy observation for him to publicly make. Tell your side to quit showing up to protests with bear mace and baseball bats if you want some semblance of… Read more »
The problem, CM, is that so many who hold your view happen to think that EVERYBODY who is merely conservative is a Nazi. If we let you guys start defining who it’s acceptable to assault, you’ll never stop with just the skinheads.
Wow, the ultimate slippery-slope cop-out. You’re making that the people protesting racist White Nationalists with full offensive and defensive gear are just going around causing trouble randomly, in a vaccum.
It doesn’t get any easier than disavowing Nazis. It’s a gimme.
I find it disgusting that you’re hiding beyond such obvious bullshit. I don’t think you even know what “moral authority” means.
But this is ALL a natural and inevitable result of Trump being elected. So everyone who voted for him also owns this and shares responsibility in it. Even though responsibility will continue to be abdicated in favour of “many sides”, which Trump has now doubled down on at his latest surreal press conference. The Handmaids Tale and other such fiction is fast becoming reality and yet people like you are lapping it up.
Well said Judge Dredd, bang on.
Pathetic and disgusting.
I don’t claim moral authority, but I have two things I believe in: free speech and the right to non-violently assemble. If you are opposed to me on that, then you are literally as bad as a Nazi. Nazis also suppressed unpopular opinions and used violence to suppress them. Read a fucking book. If the political Left thinks it will win the arguments of the day with intimidation and violence, then all I can tell you is that you’re on the losing side. Your lack of self-awareness is stunning, you know. Look at your comments in this thread: “The people… Read more »
Sorry but I’m in no way opposed to free speech and the right to non-violently assemble, and nothing I’ve said suggested otherwise. So you take shove that straw man where the sun doesn’t shine. Nazis also suppressed unpopular opinions and used violence to suppress them. Read a fucking book. I’ve read plenty of them, thanks. If the political Left thinks it will win the arguments of the day with intimidation and violence, then all I can tell you is that you’re on the losing side. If you think that’s the argument I’m making, you’re mistaken. Really. Tell me more about… Read more »
It’s also very telling that you completely fail to acknowledge that the counter-protesters would not have been there were it not for the neo-Nazi rally. It takes something special to turn what happened into how you’re portraying it.
I see you took my advice and thought about things. It’s good to see that you’ve shifted from a position of simply “fuck Nazis” with all of the tacit approval of street violence that comes with it to “well, the Nazis started it!” I call it progress. I’m still not seeing the denunciation of fascist tactics that the Alt Left is using though. It’s a journey, not a destination, I guess. Where is your evidence that it was clearly just one side who started it? I didn’t say which side “started it.” What is noteworthy is that the rightwing crowd… Read more »
Political violence is bad, on both sides. There I said it. Bigger topic. Thrill, don’t you think it’s fucked that 36 years after Indiana Jones fought them, and 72 years after my grandfather fought them, that Nazism is such a large movement in the US? That there’s a large swathe of people who want to ethnic cleanse the US. This weekend they clashed with a group that didn’t want the US to be ethnic cleansed, and it got violent. But wasn’t it weird that the President didn’t immediately disavow the Nazis? Even after they killed an American? Reckon we should… Read more »
Let me get this straight. According to you, the entire political right bears culpability for the actions of one racist person killing an innocent, yet there is no culpability whatsoever for the left in the violence of Antifa, BLM, and allies? And fuck those who can’t differentiate Nazis with BLM Near as I can tell, you’re the one not able to properly differentiate, aside from a very black-and-white view. Clearly there is a correct side when you’re talking about the general aims of the sides–white nationalism vs. anti-racism. But there is definitely guilt and culpability from both sides in causing… Read more »
The Handmaid’s Tale?
Get. A. Grip.
Is it really a large movement? I don’t think so. In looking at the initial photos coming out, you see things like this one, which make the white nationalist movement seem more intimidating. But then I saw this image, a zoomed out view of the torchbearers surrounding Jefferson’s statue. I count maybe 2-300 there. If it was a local group, that would be one thing, but these people came from all over the country to attend this rally, and a few hundred is the most they could muster. This is not a “large movement” nor a “large swathe” of people.… Read more »
Bullshit. Then everyone who voted for Obama owns and shares responsibility for drone bombings of innocent people. Not to mention the astronomical rise in cost of my health insurance – who do I send the bill to?
“Nazi” does not equal “white nationalist right-wing idiot” no matter how many swastika flags they have. Remember that Hitler’s rise to power was largely due to a socialist platform.
It’s amazing to watch the liberal media try to pin this entire situation on Trump. I watched an interview on CNN with some of the left-wing protesters, where the commentator basically asked one cursory question about how they are feeling after the tragedy, then the second question was something along the lines of, “Seeing as Trump encourages this type of behavior in racists, how does that make you feel?” It was absolutely asinine. They’ve abandoned all semblance of an impartial view, and now look for any excuse to blame Trump for anything and everything. The story isn’t about domestic terrorism,… Read more »
Thank you for that first point, ilovecress. Once we acknowledge that violence is unacceptable, we can discuss these issues. I know some of you guys might think I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time talking about it here, but that’s only because I think it’s essential that we get a consensus on it before we can go any further. Moving past it, you’re opening a deep rabbit hole with this (you’re good at that, you know) and it’s probably worthy of its own post. I’ll try to keep it within scope here for now. The first thought I have is… Read more »
Unless he’s got a quippy tweet to send out.
No, not even then. His tweets are calculated. Every now and then he misfires, but he does in fact put out the message he means to put out.
Oh, look, as Trump predicted they’re going after George Washington now. Great job, Far Left! You could just let the Alt Right destroy itself with these stupid Nazis with tiki torches but instead, yeah, try to outdo the lunacy.
Great strategy. Tremendous.
THIS
For the most part I would agree with that. But considering how his administration has had to respond multiple times as a result of his tweets…I don’t think he thinks all of them through as much as you might think. They just consistently fit the narrative he wants portrayed, so even if they have to backtrack on his tweets, they are able to obfuscate, or put the blame elsewhere.
His messaging is what he means. I don’t think that many within the Administration really get him though, particularly the establishment politicians and appointees. Your typical Beltway Republican is a spineless pussy who cares too much about what the media wants them to be. Trump’s communications consistently jibe with his base–with the GOP establishment’s base too even if they won’t acknowledge it–and the minute he says things that prompt a media backlash, the Beltway types piss their pants. Trump’s instincts about the GOP base and how to address them are correct. It’s because his messaging is so effective that the… Read more »
After reading through this shit show all I’d really like to add is that the president has reaffirmed what a weak and powerless waif he is by cucking himself over the admonishment of the neo-nazi terrorist attack. He isn’t “wise” for holding off his responses, he was fighting his advisers and improved the “violence on all sides” statement right on the microphone. Then he cucked himself again by reversing his first statement only to then reverse it again because he wasn’t finished cycling himself. Here was an instance where all he had to do was denounce the act singularly, and… Read more »
I just shake my head when people who hate Trump and have refused to ever support him tell me that “THIS TIME HE HAS GONE TOO FAR AND NOW HE’S FINISHED!” Hell, I thought he was going to go down any day now because of Russia. Now he’s going to be imminently impeached because he says violence is bad. This is High Silliness, man. I have news for you: he isn’t going down. If you don’t understand what he was saying or why he said it, you don’t get why he won in the first place and why he’ll win… Read more »
Not a very high bar you’re setting there when all you’ve got is Obama and Bush to go by.
Considering that this “weak and ineffective” leader just successfully persuaded Kim Jong Un to put his missiles away and pee sitting down for the rest of his life, I have to wonder what the news cycle would look like this week if we didn’t have an utterly corrupt partisan media bleating about 500 lousy unemployed white people in a park.
Of course politically-motivated violence is wrong. That should go without saying, FFS. I’ve spoken out many times on this, just not here because this place is new and I’ve had a hard time letting go of the the last place. But, yes, I know you have to pretend I support it as part of your bullshit racist-enabling narrative.
I’m still not seeing the denunciation of fascist tactics that the Alt Left is using though. I gladly give you that redundant denunciation. I’m still not seeing the denunciation of the emboldenment, enablement, and promotion of racist fucks form you though. Just measly-mouthed justifications for Trump’s woeful leadership. You’re basing a lot of this on a evidence-free narrative of “but they started it” (while at the same time trying to claim you didn’t say that). You’re effectively become a Trump mouth-piece, even taking on his exact language, while at the same time trying really hard to pretend you’re not. Trump… Read more »
Hey, ilovecress definitively said out of the gate that political violence is wrong no matter who does it. I thanked him and opened up (what I think is) a good discussion with him. You, on the other hand, made me go digging for links to prove that violent extremists are violent. You’re being unfair to me. Go back through my comments and note that I thought you were putting yourself in a bad box and I was trying to give you an honorable way out of it before really laying into you. I don’t believe that you’re a violent person… Read more »
I’m still not seeing the denunciation of the emboldenment, enablement, and promotion of racist fucks form you though. I’m opposed to racist fucks. I denounce neo-Nazis and white supremacists and anyone else who would harm, oppress, or mistreat any person simply because he or she is different. My oldest daughter is biracial. Her birth mother is black. Were the racist fucks ever to prevail, they would hang me from a lamp post for race mixing or diluting the bloodline or whatever they call it. I have no desire to see them prosper on personal grounds, beyond political ones. They are… Read more »
🙂
Ok, I’l try again in a different way, as requested. I hold that your position gives racism the space and ability to grow and prosper. That most people who harbour racist tendencies actively fight against them, or simply don’t let them be known, because of the social pressure against discriminatory behaviour, which is never anything to be taken for granted (given the history of racism, not just in the US), and is always led from the top. I hold that when it comes to discrimination, groups need to be called out for what they are, and there just be no… Read more »
And that your equivocating position (and Trumps win, with the inevitable rise in the promotion of discrimination) weakens that social pressure and produces a society that is more discriminatory and biased across the board. I think you are concentrating on the detailed narrative that suits your wider narrative, while ignoring a much more important wider narrative.
Trump is so unique and morally odious that I’m on the same side as people like Krauthammer, which was previously unthinkable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08zSks8ynkA
Yes, this is what I was hoping for. Look, this is what Trump has had to say on the matter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6PFZNruJes There is absolutely no daylight between my position, Trump’s, and yours on this, is there? You want racism called out from the top, there it is. The ONLY way you could have a problem with what he said there is if you simply don’t believe him. If you don’t, there’s nothing anyone can do to convince you otherwise. We have nowhere to go from there. I’ve never said that racists shouldn’t be subject to social pressure where their beliefs… Read more »
I’m not equivocating about anything. As zoom noted somewhere above, we are in a time dominated by identity politics. Discrimination already exists and some of it is against whites under the law or bias is in favor of minority groups.
A Trump supporter can be totally non-racist and ask why this is. He can have absolutely no animus against black or brown people, while still thinking that they shouldn’t get preferences in hiring or college admissions.
There is no ‘reply’ button under your response, so not sure where to put this…. Look, this is what Trump has had to say on the matter: Unfortunately this is just not credible as it’s clearly Trump reading remarks prepared by his aides off the screen. Contrast his entire body language with when he’s talking like he means it. He’s not someone who has had to bother with moderating the way he delivers, that’s (apparently) a ‘feature’, not a ‘bug’. And also because it’s inconsistent (contrary even) with the way Trump dealt with race (and to some extent violence) through… Read more »
Hey, you finally get it. No it’s not a high bar to hurdle and this monumentally morally bankrupt dipshit can crawl over it.
Eh. Like I said before. If you already think Trump is Literally Hitler, then it doesn’t matter what he says or when he says it. Still, it’s disingenuous for anyone to claim that he hasn’t renounced white supremacists when he has. Like I said, there’s nowhere else to go on that line of conversation. I’m still not sure where you’ve got this ‘fact’ that it was the anti-facist / anti-racist protesters that were responsible for the violence from. You seem to be maintaining this definitive basic position that everything would have been fine if the Nazis hadn’t been attacked. I… Read more »