I’ve been grappling with this illegal immigration issue revolving around splitting up families and placing detained kids in cages. A post on the topic is overdue, and here it is, but it only came after deliberating what there even is to discuss.

As the national debate has dragged on, I’m left with the choice between throwing in with the callous side who is perfectly willing to keep using draconian measures to stem illegal immigration and the cynical one who would encourage this virtual Children’s Crusade of unaccompanied minors to exploit for its own purposes of promoting open borders.

You all suck.

As I’ve evaluated the issue and thought about the best way to approach it, I figured it would be best if I started by determining ahead of time what I won’t do to explain my position on the issue or to discuss it.

First, I’m not going to make light of the issue or minimize what’s happening with these kids.  They’re victims and they have absolutely nothing.  They’re alone, unhappy, and I can’t say for sure what homes they have to go back to.  They’re victims, not criminals.  Not victims of this Administration, mind you.  But victims of the failed societies, weak families, and (in extreme cases) the downright Satanic traffickers who sent them here.

Maybe they’re someone else’s infestation or political football, but not mine.  Other people can do that, but I’m not going to.

What else do I not want to do in this post?  Whataboutisms.  I’m seeing a lot of that out there and it isn’t getting anywhere.  Look, I think playing “whatabout” is fair.  Yes, if Trump is being condemned for enforcing a law that was passed under a president whose family is now criticizing him for doing it it’s perfectly fine to point that out.  It’s also valid to point out the hypocrisy of the press, who ignored the Obama Administration’s use of some of the same practices that the Trump Administration is now doing.

Whataboutisms are fine, but only when they’re used properly.  If you want to claim that Obama is a monster for doing the same things that Trump is now being called one for, then at least give Obama the benefit of the doubt for doing what he thought he had to in a bad situation.

Why did Obama have to detain kids?  Is he a demonic monster?  Well, yeah, but that’s not why.  Illegal immigrants and human traffickers figured out that this was a vulnerability in our own laws.  There are circumstances where we have to accept kids and there are others when it’s necessary to separate them from their parents.  It’s bad optics for those of us who are tough on immigration and helps them achieve their goals.

So why didn’t the laws get changed?  Congress wouldn’t work with Obama because they didn’t trust him.  Because of Satan.    Since the news media was curiously incurious about children being locked in cages and other topics that might have made the Obama Administration look bad, there wasn’t very much public pressure to do anything about it.  Now we have a new president and the media is interested in applying some of that public pressure.

When it comes to the children being in cages, separated from their mommies and daddies, does it really matter who did what four years ago?  No, it doesn’t.  The American people elected Donald Trump partly because we wanted him to deal with this issue.  We wanted to “get tough” on illegal immigration.

Well, putting kids in cages is pretty hardcore, as it goes.  Very Kevin Spacey, as Seth Macfarlane would have it.  And it turns out that the American people are now uncomfortable with being tough and would like to be less tough for a little boy who isn’t one of those MS-13 members we keep hearing about.  Trump and the Republican Congress have to act and what Obama and Bush did or didn’t do is irrelevant to me.

I’ll tell you why.  I’m as anti-illegal immigration as you can be.  I’m highly dubious about the benefits of legal immigration and want it severely limited.  DACA?  Yeah, I agree with Trump.  You have to go back.

I’m tough.  But guess what?  I don’t want kids locked up in cages or separated from their parents unless it’s absolutely necessary and I’m far from convinced that it is.  Nobody has successfully made the case to me that this is all wonderful and good.

“We’re only talking about a small number of minors, WG”, you might say.  I don’t care.  I do not want to see any kids in cages.  One is too many and yes, a confined area is a cage whether it has bars or chain link fencing or those weird circling hoop things that General Zod and his minions were trapped in at the beginning of Superman 2.

For those times that we have to detain children separately, I want them to be in the most comfortable circumstances imaginable.  Whatever money we have to spend to turn every child detainment camp into Disneyland, do it.  I don’t care if the ICE agents all have to dress like Disney princesses and read them bedtime stories every single night using different voices for all of the characters.

We can do better than this.  I’m not defending putting kids in cages or tearing families apart simply because they crossed the border illegally.  The kids are generally blameless and should only be separated from their parents if we’re really going to charge them with felonies, not just to punish them as a deterrent to others (it won’t work anyway).  If I have to be on the side of harshly punishing children for the sins of their parents, a violation of the highest moral law, count me out. Okay?

That’s the last thing that I refuse to do on this post or discussion.  I’m not going to defend the indefensible nor am I going to waste time explaining why I’m not a monster for wanting a strong border.

You know where I stand and I think that this is a good starting point for all of us.  We all want to see the kids out of cages and reunited with their parents, right?  Right.  There’s no need to demonize or anything like that.

We can all start by agreeing that we want to stop kids from being separated from their families and put in cages, one way or another.  Either we change the practices, make it easier for people to immigrate lawfully, or increase the penalties on adults sufficiently to deter illegal immigration.  We can disagree on the methods, but I’m starting with the assumption that nobody likes what’s happening and everybody wants it to stop.

Here’s another piece we all have to understand and agree upon.  All of us that I’m aware of live in First World nations.  As countries in the Third World continue to deteriorate and people have to choose between dying in war and poverty and rolling the dice on crossing our borders, we’re going to see a lot more of them.  This problem not only isn’t going to go away, it’s going to get worse.  Can we agree on that?

I see a couple of my friends have been arguing this issue on the open thread and it’s gone about as badly as it has on every single forum I’ve seen where current events are discussed.  Let’s see how this goes.

Everything that we have to discuss from here is what’s best for managing the human tide.  What’s the best choice for humanity?  What policy proposals have you heard that you like?  There are a couple of measures being discussed in Congress.

Tell me.  What best characterizes your view?  Are you more open borders/easy access or Fortress America?  What should be done with unaccompanied minors and families who show up on our doorstep?  Hey, maybe my assumption is wrong.  Maybe somebody thinks the current policy is good.  Sell me on it.

I feel like we’re all locked in our own little cages and it’s causing a lot of bad feelings.  Doesn’t have to be like that.

I’d like to see a good discussion, but I’m not going to moderate this thread.  I’m only imposing rules on myself for what I won’t do.  This issue is something I feel I have to come to terms with as a Trump voter and someone who defends his Administration, more often than not.  Again, I think we can do better than this.  I just want to figure out how.

90 comments

  1. First, I’m not going to make light of the issue or minimize what’s happening with these kids.

    I thought it was like summer camp? Or were you mocking the comparison?

    But victims of the failed societies, weak families,

    If your situation is so shitty that you’re trying to get into the US to escape it, I would say the opposite of weak. Strong and brave to take the risk in the hopes of improving it.

    I’m left with the choice between throwing in with the callous side who is perfectly willing to keep using draconian measures to stem illegal immigration and the cynical one who would encourage this virtual Children’s Crusade of unaccompanied minors to exploit for its own purposes of promoting open borders.

    Nonsense, you can’t not be ok with this situation without throwing your lot in with those you see exploiting it for their own ends. Didn’t you try to make that same argument to me just a day or two ago?

    Yes, if Trump is being condemned for enforcing a law that was passed under a president whose family is now criticizing him for doing it it’s perfectly fine to point that out.

    And it’s equally fine to note that it’s a lie. There is no law requiring the separation of families.

    Why did Obama have to detain kids?

    Because they were unaccompanied minors?
    Families were kept together unless there was a deemed reason for not doing so.

    Congress wouldn’t work with Obama because they didn’t trust him.

    Why would anyone trust Trump, surely one of the least trustworthy humans on the planet?
    Or is this part of your dastard “yes, we deliberately elected an absolutely atrocious human so that the left will behave and we can all finally come together” plan?

    We can all start by agreeing that we want to stop kids from being separated from their families and put in cages, one way or another.

    I don’t think that’s correct. The Administration has been explicit that this is to be used to change immigration laws. They actively want A to happen so that B will happen. The idea is that B won’t happen without A. So A is absolutely needed.

  2. Here’s another piece we all have to understand and agree upon. All of us that I’m aware of live in First World nations. As countries in the Third World continue to deteriorate and people have to choose between dying in war and poverty and rolling the dice on crossing our borders, we’re going to see a lot more of them. This problem not only isn’t going to go away, it’s going to get worse. Can we agree on that?

    I agree, and more and more of that will be because of the effects of climate change. And therefore we will increasingly apportion individual blame to those who have actively worked against combating climate change. In addition to other measures which make lives harder in the Third World. We won’t be saying “it’s all your fault” but we’ll certainly keep reminding you that your politics and who you vote for make these things infinitely worse.

    The American people elected Donald Trump partly because we wanted him to deal with this issue. We wanted to “get tough” on illegal immigration.

    This is yet another entirely foreseeable result of what you voted for. Absolutely this is another one on you.

  3. I thought it was like summer camp? Or were you mocking the comparison?

    I was totally making light of it but I’m not going to do it again. I’m not retroactively applying my own rules to other threads. I’ve said what I won’t do in this discussion.

    If your situation is so shitty that you’re trying to get into the US to escape it, I would say the opposite of weak. Strong and brave to take the risk in the hopes of improving it.

    I just want to highlight this right here for everybody. Whatever else you think of CM or his positions, this is a compassionate answer. I can respect that.

    Why would anyone trust Trump, surely one of the least trustworthy humans on the planet?

    Because if nobody does, then this situation will persist and even worsen. Nobody benefited from it getting ignored during the Obama years, did they?

    Or is this part of your dastard “yes, we deliberately elected an absolutely atrocious human so that the left will behave and we can all finally come together” plan?

    I didn’t vote for Trump because he’s a nice guy. I think he’s ruthless and the Left is going to have to either sit down at the table with him or bask in irrelevance. How did things turn out for the DACA kids? Did the Resistance get them any legislation that protects their status? No.

    The Administration has been explicit that this is to be used to change immigration laws.

    They should be changed. Does anybody disagree on that? I’m not seeing a lot of celebration for the status quo. Everybody thinks they’re too harsh or too lax.

    We won’t be saying “it’s all your fault” but we’ll certainly keep reminding you that your politics and who you vote for make these things infinitely worse.

    And you think we’ll somehow be interested in admitting millions of people who blame us for controlling the weather and hate us? That argument is making the wall sound reasonable.

    This is yet another entirely foreseeable result of what you voted for. Absolutely this is another one on you.

    I voted for Trump and I’ll probably vote for him again. I can certainly still disagree with him on things. I disagreed with him when he bombed Syria “for the children”, didn’t I?

    You’re locked in your own cage. It’s dwelling on the past and assigning blame for everything. I’m interested in policy solutions. I don’t want to rehash the Obama presidency or the 2016 election today. I want to know how to get kids out of cages and back with their families.

    Do me a favor and take a long look at the cartoon I used as the image for this post. You’re doing that. Stop it.

  4. I just want to highlight this right here for everybody. Whatever else you think of CM or his positions, this is a compassionate answer. I can respect that.

    The vast majority on your side will LOL hard at that. Or is that the intent? Again, it’s hard to tell whether you’re mocking or not anymore.

    Because if nobody does

    But nobody can. He’s proven himself utterly untrustworthy. Only a complete fool would trust such a person.
    My fear is that although much of what Trump does can be reversed by whoever is next, the world would have learnt and won’t trust that it won’t happen again. This is now getting into the realms of serious long term damage.

    then this situation will persist and even worsen.

    Which specific situation? You can’t be talking about the detention of children, that’s purely a decision by Trump which he could reverse at any time but chooses not to. I assume you mean the situation this is apparently a reaction to. It’s probably necessary to set that out clearly and comprehensively, using facts/evidence.

    I didn’t vote for Trump because he’s a nice guy.

    Oh I realise that. I’m not sure anyone did?!

    I think he’s ruthless and the Left is going to have to either sit down at the table with him or bask in irrelevance. How did things turn out for the DACA kids? Did the Resistance get them any legislation that protects their status? No.

    Sure, sit at the table, no question, that should always happen regardless. Doesn’t mean they’ll be able to trust him though.

    They should be changed. Does anybody disagree on that? I’m not seeing a lot of celebration for the status quo. Everybody thinks they’re too harsh or too lax.

    The issue is whether you inflict serious and potentially long term trauma to hundreds and hundreds of human beings so you can get what you want.

    And you think we’ll somehow be interested in admitting millions of people who blame us for controlling the weather and hate us?

    And you think that if you’re no longer criticised for continuing to support policies which contribute to making their countries less liveable (based on nutjob conspiracy theories) while at the same time making it harder to get into the US, you’ll stop doing it?
    The ones who hate America don’t tend to be the ones asking for help at the border.

    I voted for Trump and I’ll probably vote for him again. I can certainly still disagree with him on things. I disagreed with him when he bombed Syria “for the children”, didn’t I?

    Sure you can, but when you vote for someone like Trump you’re LITERALLY risking it all. So you absolutely are blamed for what happens. Because THIS is the kinds of shit your vote foreseeably results in.

    You’re locked in your own cage. It’s dwelling on the past and assigning blame for everything.

    LOL this is a specific Trump decision – to actively use (sacrifice) scared young children as bargaining chips to get his way. The right always say the left is metaphorically doing this over gun control. This is literal.
    Or COURSE there is a context surrounding it, but that’s absolutely no excuse, it’s a complete cop-out.

    I want to know how to get kids out of cages and back with their families.

    Good luck. You lit the fuse by voting for a complete shit of a person. Funnily enough shitty people don’t particularly care about kids being with their families. They just want to ‘win’, and this is how they do it.

    Do me a favor and take a long look at the cartoon I used as the image for this post. You’re doing that. Stop it.

    ? You want me to be as utterly disingenuous as that cartoon? Not sure how that will help.

  5. This is the intersection of Trump’s cruelty and incompetence. If he was going to establish a zero tolerance policy toward border crossings, he had to do things in advance: hire way more agents, install way more judges and vastly expand facilities. In fact, Ted Cruz’s bill does precisely this (and it’s long overdue; our immigration system has been overwhelmed for a long time). But this is Trump; he decides to do things and doesn’t think through what the consequences are.

  6. The vast majority on your side will LOL hard at that. Or is that the intent? Again, it’s hard to tell whether you’re mocking or not anymore.

    I pay you a compliment and that’s your response? And you’re doing it on this thread after I made it very clear that I wanted a good discussion about actual solutions.

    This is a bad look for you, CM. I know you think you’re scoring points on me, but even people who agree with you about Trump don’t like the way you’re behaving in this thread.

    I want a real discussion on this topic, not a fight.

  7. In fact, Ted Cruz’s bill does precisely this (and it’s long overdue; our immigration system has been overwhelmed for a long time).

    What’s your overall opinion on Cruz’s bill? He’s no slouch on border control.

  8. I pay you a compliment and that’s your response?

    As mentioned, I wasn’t 100% convinced that it was a compliment (especially as it was left field and certainly not something that others would agree with, so alerting others to it also raised a flag). I’m used to years of being mocked for such things. But thanks, I now see that it was intended as one.
    It’s just being human though really. But I guess that IS now a point of difference these days.

    And you’re doing it on this thread after I made it very clear that I wanted a good discussion about actual solutions.

    But you also put a whole lot else in there that I wanted to respond to.

    This is a bad look for you, CM. I know you think you’re scoring points on me, but even people who agree with you about Trump don’t like the way you’re behaving in this thread.

    Well, I genuinely was confused by what you were doing there. But people will think what they’re gonna think anyway.
    The whole ‘bad look’ claim is fucking funny in the wider Trump-loving context though.

    I want a real discussion on this topic, not a fight.

    I’ll bow out for a while and let others discuss.

  9. But thanks, I now see that it was intended as one.
    It’s just being human though really. But I guess that IS now a point of difference these days.

    For what it’s worth, I was doing it because I wanted to draw everyone’s attention to the best thing you said rather than the criticisms. As long as that’s understood, I’m good with moving past it.

    The whole ‘bad look’ claim is fucking funny in the wider Trump-loving context though.

    I know, but just because there’s lots of poisonous political discourse out there doesn’t mean we have to drink it.

    Focus on my central premise. I agree with you that putting children in cages and separating them from their families is harmful. That’s a huge chunk of the argument between pro and anti Trumpers right there on this issue. I’m open to options and don’t need to be pummeled.

    I’ll bow out for a while and let others discuss.

    In your defense, you came into this thread from a hot argument on the Scandalrama thread. It can be hard to shift gears.

    Would you like me to delete our comments and have a clean slate for when you return?

  10. I don’t think Trump is cruel; he’s just totally tone-deaf on this issue. The optics of this just look bad, and if he can’t or won’t see that then he deserves to be a one-termer.

    Of course the Left is exploiting this for their own benefit. They’ll reap the votes this can bring them, and afterwards they can get outraged over something else. If they’d put their own egos aside, they’d actually do something about this themselves.

    There ought to be a reasonable process for these kids and their parents to stay together. With such large numbers, kids are going to get lost in the shuffle, misidentified, and given to the wrong or worse people claiming to be their parents. In the long run, hysterics on either side don’t help anyone.

  11. I don’t think Trump is cruel; he’s just totally tone-deaf on this issue. The optics of this just look bad, and if he can’t or won’t see that then he deserves to be a one-termer.

    It’s a no-win situation. The GOP is wobbly on illegal immigration as it is and no congressman or senator wants to deal with the campaign ads showing sad kids behind bars. That’s if Trump keeps going with this–and he is.

    If he gives up and softens his stance, you can expect another tidal wave of minors to head for the border and Trump to have a weaker hand in fighting amnesty.

  12. I agree with you that putting children in cages and separating them from their families is harmful. That’s a huge chunk of the argument between pro and anti Trumpers right there on this issue.

    As is the ongoing lying about the issue by Trump and his people, as is suggesting that immigrants ‘infest’ America. Actually putting children in cages is only one facet of it.

    Would you like me to delete our comments and have a clean slate for when you return?

    I don’t see any need to.

    Anyway, as I promised, I won’t monopolise the thread. Happy ‘World Refugee Day’ to you.

  13. I am pretty confident that if these kids were being locked up with their parents(adults they were caught with) the outrage would be just about the same, with different headlines.

    Trump locks up kids with sex traffickers.

    Kids in unsafe conditions with adults.

    Reich Marshal Sessions sending whole families to Walmart Gulags

  14. I’m going to do the best I can to explain my position – and I’m going to try and do it without being a snarky bastard. but I don’t have a great track record on that, so apologies in advance.

    Everything that we have to discuss from here is what’s best for managing the human tide. What’s the best choice for humanity? What policy proposals have you heard that you like? There are a couple of measures being discussed in Congress.

    To me this is the weirdest thing about the whole anti-Globalism movement. The (alt?) right seems to think that ‘my side’ is in love with Globalism and multiculturalism. And sometimes that’s true. But whether or not you like it, matters not a jot. . Globalism and migration is going to happen whether you like it or not. The issue is how best to deal with it. IMHO nationalism is just shouting at the tides.

    I’ll tell you why. I’m as anti-illegal immigration as you can be.

    Me too. I’m softer than you on what to do with undocumented immigrants when they’re here (and not just for fluffy reasons) – but it’s not like the left actively has a policy of wanting as many undocumented people in the country as possible. I’m against the wall because I don’t think it’ll work, not because I do think it’ll work.

    I’m not defending putting kids in cages or tearing families apart simply because they crossed the border illegally.

    There’s some credible reporting that this is happening to a) People crossing legally at ports of entry and b) People who are crossing improperly, but still seeking asylum.

    We all want to see the kids out of cages and reunited with their parents, right? Right. There’s no need to demonize or anything like that.

    The question is how much though. Do the Democrats hate it enough to give in to Trmps demands, or does Trump hate it enough to just end the policy?

    What policy proposals have you heard that you like?

    Crack down harder on the companies who make money off hiring undocumented workers than you do on people seeking asylum from violence and fear. If your worry about immigration is jobs, then this should be an easy fix.

    Make it easier to immigrate legally. I don’t mean be less stringent – I mean make it take less time.

  15. I just want to highlight this right here for everybody. Whatever else you think of CM or his positions, this is a compassionate answer. I can respect that.

    Sorry, but I have little patience for someone 6.5 thousand miles away wagging his haughty sanctimonious finger at me (America) and telling me how I should address my problems, problems which do not affect him or anyone he knows.

    I guess I could follow suit and show my compassion by bemoaning the plight of those suffering in his nation and remind him how terrible his people are for turning their backs on the poor, homeless and disenfranchised;

    https://thestandard.org.nz/new-zealands-most-shameful-secret-we-have-normalised-child-poverty/

    I’m sure if I was so inclined I could find other areas where I could give them a good scolding.

    What is that old saying about commenting on the spec in your neighbors eye and forgetting about the beam in your own?

    How compassionate I would seem by telling my neighbors to give all their money to the poor, to open up their homes to immigrants, to remove the locks on their doors and allow open and free access to their stuff be anyone that is in need. Of course I would do none of that myself, it’s easier to tell others what to do, especially when looking in from a far.

    Besides, immigration is just a talking point to the left, a method of accumulating power to corralling potential voters, they don’t want solutions;

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/32055/breaking-democrats-reject-legislative-fix-stop-ryan-saavedra

    Compassion is walking the walk and leading by example, when CM takes in a family of refugees then I will let him lecture me on compassion.

    No doubt he will interpret this screed as me being uncompassionate, wanting families separated and wanting ALL illegals deported or jailed, some things never change.

  16. Sorry, but I have little patience for someone 6.5 thousand miles away wagging his haughty sanctimonious finger at me (America) and telling me how I should address my problems, problems which do not affect him or anyone he knows.

    I don’t agree. I think all Western countries (yes, I count NZ) either are or soon will be facing these same issues, particularly with regard to human trafficking. ilovecress is right that whether we want them or not, they’re coming.

    Everybody has a stake in this argument.

    Besides, immigration is just a talking point to the left, a method of accumulating power to corralling potential voters, they don’t want solutions;

    That can be true and it can also be true that the Administration–any Administration–should be pressured to ensure that children who are brought here are treated as humanely as possible.

    Compassion is walking the walk and leading by example, when CM takes in a family of refugees then I will let him lecture me on compassion.

    Argh. You’re proving his point about what you guys would say. I wish you wouldn’t bash him for challenging a point that I made, not him.

  17. Grendel says:
    JUNE 19, 2018 AT 10:19 PM EDIT
    I am pretty confident that if these kids were being locked up with their parents(adults they were caught with) the outrage would be just about the same, with different headlines.

    Trump locks up kids with sex traffickers.

    Kids in unsafe conditions with adults.

    True. But we shouldn’t let the fact that Trump is going to get criticized either way cloud our judgment about what the right thing is to do. The kids are being separated from their parents to punish the parents. I don’t see how that’s acting to protect them at all.

  18. and I’m going to try and do it without being a snarky bastard. but I don’t have a great track record on that

    Nah, your application of snark is usually timely, just enough for taste.

    The (alt?) right

    Do you think there are any alt-right members here?

    IMHO nationalism is just shouting at the tides.

    We have different definitions of nationalism. Nationalism for me embraces the rule of law, a love of country and an obligation to be a good citizen; none of that is antithetical to immigration. Do you mean “isolationism”?

    but it’s not like the left actively has a policy of wanting as many undocumented people in the country as possible.

    I think you would be surprised at how many on the left want exactly that;

    https://twitter.com/rue_this_day/status/1008751227004506113?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fpatriotretort.com%2Fwere-a-sovereign-nation-not-a-halfway-house%2F
    Check out some of the comments below.

    Make it easier to immigrate legally. I don’t mean be less stringent – I mean make it take less time.

    Agreed, but also we need to be more discerning more selective. Do away with chain migration and lottery migration.

  19. ilovecress says:
    JUNE 19, 2018 AT 10:23 PM
    Globalism and migration is going to happen whether you like it or not. The issue is how best to deal with it. IMHO nationalism is just shouting at the tides.

    It always amuses me when people talk about how immigration waves destroyed the Roman Empire. It wasn’t like the Romans could possibly hold back entire nations of people who were fleeing for their lives or starving. They weren’t known for being an altruistic people.

    The Third World is, as somebody once said, a whole bunch of “shithole countries”. The US and other Western nations are really awesome. Especially the US. They’re coming and it’s not hard to understand why.

    If both parties could make the right assurances to each other, it’s possible that there could be an agreement on how to manage it. I just don’t know if they could do it.

    I’ve mentioned before that I’m fine with taking in refugees and they generally become good citizens. For migrants, I’m good with work permits IF we can guarantee that they will not vote, won’t get any form of welfare, and any babies they have while they’re here won’t give them a foothold to permanent residency. That would get the ball rolling for me.

  20. 6,525 miles. Tell me you looked that up?!

    I was going to guess at 5,000 miles but I didn’t want to be wrong by so much that the central premise lost it’s meaning, so yes, I did look it up.

    Argh. You’re proving his point about what you guys would say. I wish you wouldn’t bash him for challenging a point that I made, not him.

    I call ’em as I see ’em, and I don’t think I was proving any of his points, just his qualifications for making them.

    Glad you’re on board Rich.

    TBH, I don’t know enough about the situation to chastise you for it. Each individual nation has their own set of societal problems unique to that nation. It would be presumptuous of me to lecture you on how you should fix your own societal problems.

  21. Told ya.

    Yeah, you did.

    And both of you missed the whole point of my comment, I expected one but not the other.

  22. And both of you missed the whole point of my comment, I expected one but not the other.

    Oh, I’d rather move past it now. We have a great discussion going on, which is what I wanted to begin with.

  23. Do you think there are any alt-right members here?

    I’m kind of curious to know the answer to this one. Among our group who posts and comments, it’s a “no” as far as I understand the Alt-Right.

  24. For migrants, I’m good with work permits IF we can guarantee that they will not vote, won’t get any form of welfare, and any babies they have while they’re here won’t give them a foothold to permanent residency. That would get the ball rolling for me.

    For my information – can I just ask why you hold this position? (unless I’ve got it wrong) If a migrant qualifies to immigrate into the US, and has a job and (presumably) pays taxes – why shouldn’t they vote/get welfare/become citizens?

    In fact, isn’t it this ‘halfway house’ system that’s created the whole mess in the first place? Years of kind of encouraging migrant labour, and now not knowing what to do with it?

  25. For my information – can I just ask why you hold this position? (unless I’ve got it wrong) If a migrant qualifies to immigrate into the US, and has a job and (presumably) pays taxes – why shouldn’t they vote/get welfare/become citizens?

    Migrants should be allowed to apply for citizenship like anyone else. Once they’re citizens, they would enjoy full rights.

    I don’t want them to vote because I don’t want the nationals of another country determining our elections. If they want that sort of stake in our society, I expect them to prove their loyalty to the US by taking the necessary steps to become citizens.

    For welfare, I don’t want migrants here with temporary status to be eligible for it because I don’t want employers to be able to say that they’re hiring them to keep prices down knowing full well that the taxpayers are subsidizing the costs of their workers so that they can pay artificially low wages.

    So what I’m saying is that migrants deserve a fair living wage.

  26. Sorry, but I have little patience for someone 6.5 thousand miles away wagging his haughty sanctimonious finger at me (America) and telling me how I should address my problems, problems which do not affect him or anyone he knows.

    I feel the same about you (the right). Decades of sanctimony and fake morality has worn a hole in my patience for Republican “family values” as I watch people rationalize putting kids in cages.

    Thrill, thank you for the well thought out post about the immorality of this. We actually aren’t terribly far on this ideologically, but I am more with ilovecress. This problem is really not that hard to solve if everyone could bring themselves to think and act rationally instead of emotionally.

    Besides, immigration is just a talking point to the left, a method of accumulating power to corralling potential voters, they don’t want solutions;

    This is the same as the left saying that the GOP is just exploiting Christians to get votes because they are so fucking dumb they would believe anything. Is it true or insulting? I can’t speak for everyone, but people that I know on “the left” know that almost none of these people will ever vote and really want to see this problem solved preferably by making the countries that they come from palatable. Believe it or not, that is where they would rather live. If Trump is such a fucking great negotiator, perhaps he could get that done by next week? I would bet that a significant percentage of the problem is related to the failed war on drugs. Perhaps Trump could end it? Nothing deflates a drug lord terrorizing towns like decriminalized drugs. Perhaps this is a fake policy to get votes?

  27. This problem is really not that hard to solve if everyone could bring themselves to think and act rationally instead of emotionally.

    Exactly right. You’re getting to what’s in my own thoughts. We CANNOT expect the public or Congress to think rationally while there are images of lonely and scared kids locked in cages, away from their mothers. It needs to be taken out of the equation if reason is going to work here.

    It’s why we should be able to all agree that it needs to end ASAP, no matter who started it.

  28. We CANNOT expect the public or Congress to think rationally while there are images of lonely and scared kids locked in cages, away from their mothers. It needs to be taken out of the equation if reason is going to work here.

    THIS we can agree on. Trump can sign an EO to end this right now. Only an imbecile would take it to court to challenge him, not that we are short on those. And, yes, I would foster a child if it were an option.

  29. Decades of sanctimony and fake morality has worn a hole in my patience for Republican “family values” as I watch people rationalize putting kids in cages.

    So many fallacies with that statement, where to begin?

    You do realize that the infamous photo of kids sleeping in cages was on the Obama watch, right? Do you have any evidence at all that there are folks out there that support “putting kids in cages”? Does anyone backing the rule of law argument in this dispute support “putting kids in cages”.?quit it, that is just silly. The issue here is the separation of children from their parents, we should stick with that and not play to emotion and demagogue the issue.

    Maybe I’m wrong, please provide evidence if I am, but this Trump policy has never taken on the veneer of “family values”, why would you even bring that up? I wonder.

    Also, this is not a right/left issue or even a Republican/Democrat issue. Many folks that do use the guidance of “family values” are appalled at the situation at the border, but that didn’t stop you from smearing them anyway with one broad stroke.

    Many on the right, those folks you have no trouble heaping all the blame for decades of ambiguous ineffective immigration policy, find our present border policy morally unacceptable and politically unsustainable, myself included.

    Personally, I think the administration should end this “zero tolerance” immediately until it can be implemented without separating families. Today the GOP in congress will propose a bill that will allow migrants to be detained with their children in facilitates designed for families.

    From what I gather, Trump is using the rule of law and his tough border stance poster for his rigid zero tolerance policy, this is what he campaigned on, but he has not been the model of consistency on this issue, preaching compassion for dreamers one day then deploring giving them amnesty the next.

    Some of us would like real immigration reform. This year is the GOP’s best opportunity for real meaningful immigration legislation. If they lose the house, all bets are off, including finalizing the plight of dreamers.

    If I came off too strong with my comment to CM then I apologize. I admit I have a hair trigger when it comes to foreigners criticizing American policies especially when it comes to issues that do not even remotely affect where they live. I have bristled at past insults and criticisms of our country from him. The old saying ,”I can bad mouth my brother, nobody else can” rings true in this instance.

  30. Trump is supposedly signing something. If it keeps the families together that should tone it down.

    Also, this is not a right/left issue or even a Republican/Democrat issue. Many folks that do use the guidance of “family values” are appalled at the situation at the border, but that didn’t stop you from smearing them anyway with one broad stroke.

    When you paint with broad strokes, you can expect it back. You have similarly smeared the left several times with broad strokes. I apologize for doing so, but I have a disheartening number of friends and family on Facebook defending this appalling shit so it is a bit personal for me.

  31. Trump has a remarkable ability to move the needle and force action when issues requiring some type of action have stagnated. It’s interesting that in spite of multiple examples to this effect, so many people claim he doesn’t think through consequences or that he is ignorant of the effect of his actions.

    Our immigration system is broken, has been for decades, and has been going off the rails as the cartels and gangs have worked to overload it in recent years. People on the left have deliberately encouraged lawlessness, because it benefits them politically. They aren’t interested in a practical solution or compromise, they just want to fan the flames so they can continue to win votes and support, and distract from other issues that may go against them (e.g. FBI corruption). Or otherwise, their obstinacy is them being coy about their real belief that we simply shouldn’t have borders, which they know if they came right out and said it, it would be a complete loser.

    Trump has forced the issue, and in my opinion, that is a good thing. It works us toward a real solution, or at least can lay bare the true goals/intentions of his political opponents. It’s a shame there has to be human collateral damage, and I think Trump earnestly doesn’t want that, but a little short-term misery can have salutary effects over the long term.

  32. People on the left have deliberately encouraged lawlessness, because it benefits them politically. They aren’t interested in a practical solution or compromise, they just want to fan the flames so they can continue to win votes and support, and distract from other issues that may go against them (e.g. FBI corruption). Or otherwise, their obstinacy is them being coy about their real belief that we simply shouldn’t have borders, which they know if they came right out and said it, it would be a complete loser.

    More broad strokes.

  33. but I have a disheartening number of friends and family on Facebook defending this appalling shit

    Defending what “shit”, putting kids in cages? I doubt it. Are they standing up for the rule of law yet lamenting the familial conditions at the border? Has any of these friends and family members actually supported putting kids in cages? The simple fact of the matter is that children are placed in tent encampments while their parents are being processed. Of course they should not be separated, but the “kids in cages” meme is so over the top.

    You have similarly smeared the left several times with broad strokes.

    But here is the difference, so far from what I’ve seen, the left has done nothing to move towards a solution. Did you see that link i posted about the proposed GOP sponsored legislation to fix the problem which Shumer and every other Democrat was dead set against? Right now Trump is working towards a solution, the GOP congress is working towards a solution, aside from projectile spittle from hysterical tirades at congressional intelligence hearings yelling ,”This is not who we are”, what has the left actually done? Yet, out of the blue, you attack those embracing “family values” as if they caused this problem, as if that has anything at all to do with the border problem. As noted, Trump has not invoked family values, I have not heard one single argument from a public figure connecting family values with this border problem. You went there with zero (from what I can see) provocation.

  34. In retrospect I can see that your “family values” button is as pronounced as my “foreigners need to stay out of our business” button. So apology accepted as hopefully mine was and we can move on.

  35. So apology accepted as hopefully mine was and we can move on.

    Let’s do so! Apology accepted. I am not really interested (and you are probably not either) in bickering. I do have triggers, but I do not easily remain in an aggravated state.

    But here is the difference, so far from what I’ve seen

    We are talking about broad strokes, and I am sorry, but the left isn’t a monolith no matter how many times you say that they are.

    Has any of these friends and family members actually supported putting kids in cages?

    I must have a unique feed because it is pretty common. Saying “it’s too bad, but what else can we do”is just this side of “following orders” and completely unacceptable. One of the usual suspects, my brother, has actually finally come out and said “just let them all go”. When this person (my brother) says this, it has reached peak ridiculous. I am serious, he doesn’t give a shit about much.

    He posted this in public so I guess it is fair game:

    This has gotten out of control. We need to just let them all go. There are babies changing their own diapers for crying out loud.

    This whole process needs to be rethought. There is some setup with some airconditioned tents that would be acceptable only if the parents were there attending to the kids.

  36. And just like that, it’s over.

    Well, we have found at least one definition of “too far”: babies changing their own diapers in a cage.

  37. John Sandweg, former acting director of ICE under President Obama, told NBC News. The lack of a reunification protocol could lead to “permanent separation” of parent and child, he said.

    “You could be creating thousands of immigrant orphans in the U.S. that one day could become eligible for citizenship when they are adopted,” Sandweg said on NBC News. “I think we’re going to see hundreds of cases where the children are permanently separated from their parents, becoming wards of the United States,” he said in an interview with Global News.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/06/reuniting-families-separated-at-the-border-wont-be-easy.html

    For most, this would be a low point (how much lower can you get in a ‘civilised’ society than the state unnecessarily creating hundreds of orphans?).
    But I’m willing to bet that it keeps getting worse.

    We’re changing our travel plans for next year. Instead of the US west coast we’re now looking at Japan.

  38. Well, we have found at least one definition of “too far”: babies changing their own diapers in a cage.

    I’m sure they’ll find a way to get that bar lowered. They’re not even halfway through this term.

    I remember at one flat I lived in, we had an infestation and got a professional to get rid of it, but it just came back about a year later.

  39. We’re changing our travel plans for next year. Instead of the US west coast we’re now looking at Japan.

    So basically you’re going to take it out on the poor people of Japan. That’s kinda fucked up.

    For most, this would be a low point (how much lower can you get in a ‘civilised’ society than the state unnecessarily creating hundreds of orphans?).

    The *opinion* is that hundreds of orphans can be created, not that it would be that way. This *opinion* was based on orphans being created under the Obama administration and fear that it could happen now with a larger crackdown. No matter though, brown people don’t matter as much when a white guy is not in charge. We’re all well aware of the left’s outrage matrix.

    Here is another idea for your vacation. Maybe visit Mexico, Central America and report back to your leaders when you return home. Ask your leaders why their immigration policy is more focused on skilled labor rather than people in peril. Maybe we can work out a deal where NZ takes some of the illegal immigrants from this racist and hateful country of ours and provides them some shelter. You know, step up for once instead of bitching from an isolated island. Your population density is one of the lowest out there in the industrialized nations. There is room.

    To note, I’m guessing CM is from New Zealand because he says so, but Russian bot doesn’t seem too unreasonable either. Since Mueller and Scully are cracking down on the big conspiracy has CM registered as foreign agent yet?

  40. I’ll admit to being confused by this one too. So you won’t visit the US now that we’ve ended the practice of separating minors from their parents when they’re in immigration custody….

    …but you would visit before when we were doing it?

    And now you’re going to visit a country that has one of the strictest immigration policies on Earth instead and rarely admits refugees…

    …to show us up?

  41. The punchline to this EO is that the ACLU will now convince a Hawaiian judge to strike it down and we’ll be right back to the kids and parents being separated…and Trump will blame the judiciary and the Democrats for the situation.

    He’ll be blameless.

  42. The *opinion* is that hundreds of orphans can be created, not that it would be that way. This *opinion* was based on orphans being created under the Obama administration and fear that it could happen now with a larger crackdown.

    No, he clearly thinks that WILL happen (“I think we’re going to see hundreds of cases where the children are permanently separated from their parents, becoming wards of the United States,”).
    It’s based on experience AND the complete lack of preparation for the sudden change.

  43. I must say this is quite a pleasant change. I’d come to the conclusion I could just as easily get s trump supporter’s opinion by perusing Fox News for ten minutes but this is a highly nuanced opinion.

    What we have here is the first clear example of a divide between media/polling and the trump administration taking the pulse of his followers through the medium. I’m equal parts nihilistic and depressed over the issue for many reasons, but I’d like to start out with the nihilism aspect.

    It has been pretty depressing to see people take the “do the crime, do the time” vindictiveness our on these asylum seekers. I think I am uniquely qualified, as a member of a “sanctuary city” and “state” to see the “monsters” crossing our borders, and they are predominantly god-fearing and hard working law abiders. Sure, there are scofflaws, but let’s be clear; not all immigrants are equally bad, and these Central Americans are quite possibly the most meek you’ll ever meet. By cobtrast, we do nothing to scores of Russians, Armenians, Chinese, Koreans, etc. that come here solely to be ticks on our backs. They have zero intention of contributing, but we, as a nation, decided to kick around the weakest and the most helpless people coming here, obviously running and looking over their backs.

    That is PISS WEAK. If you are a”tough on the border” person, ok, let’s get tough, tough guys. You know your congressman and senators are spineless weakilings that cower before trump and his twitter account: do yourselves a favor and go after the real threat to your job security— the semi-skilled labors from third world nations we tend to accept without enforcement.

    This is the area I’m nihilistic about. Raiding a meat packing plant in Ohio full of (Central Americans) immigrants, or the yard service company smacks with that metallic taste of a really fucking stupid and racist person’s idea of enforcing illegal immigration. It also shows that trump’s style of governing his supporters with policies he tests in the coliseum, that HE is avoiding the issue, just like every leftist president he trots or democrat he blame shifts into.

    Illegal immigration exists not because other countries fail, its because we created a market for it. It’s just so fucking easy to kick some Guatemalan woman in the ass by this administration to please their base than it is to admit that the political system as a whole is in bed with illegal immigration by way of DONORS.

    Did you even read who gets their pants all pissy when we talk tough about visas? It’s not the hillbillies I listen to. They are a notch above the immigrants in terms of power only because they might be able to read enough to vote.

    Uber, Pizza Hut, Facebook, Carl’s Jr., Fed Ex, etcetera, etcetera are the ones who threw the highest profile tantrums over immigration crackdowns. Why? Because SLAVE LABOR = FREE MONEY.

    Your congressman cares more about political donation than your border. The president isn’t really tough on this issue; he just wants to give the average dumbfuck a show, so he separates the two most weakest entities to please the coliseum; a Guatemalan mestizo mother on the run and a poor, defenseless child. That will show everyone who is tough!

    Hey trump supporters and president trump, hoe about getting tough on the real immigration cause: the financial incentive to hire immigrants into middle class semi-skilled positions and sack wages? How about foreign companies like Samsung that plant here in San Francisco and then proceed to exhaust the H-1B visa system hiring Korean employees? How about the state of California equally distributing their liberalism and policing companies that do not practice diversity in hiring: most notably minority companies (BET, Samsung, Facebook, Uber, etc) that clearly discriminate.

    In a nutshell, I just think it would be great for this nation to hit back at industry when they exploit the nation, instead of celebrate and coddle them because “well, that’s what us here ‘publicans do.”

    I’d proudly be for immigration reform and fair practices on limiting immigration. Start by enforcing the issue with S & P 500 companies, mr. Trump. Show us you mean business.

  44. Calling anything Ann Coulter does the “normalization of Trump” is strange. She’s been getting rich and famous from saying things like this since Trump was still a Democrat.

  45. So I guess we’re already done with serious bipartisan conversation. Lasted almost a day. Good try William.

  46. To be fair, blameme, the rug got pulled from under me when Trump signed the EO and ended the need for any common ground. I guess we need a good un-bipartisan post to take this one’s place.

  47. pfluffy

    I can’t speak for everyone, but people that I know on “the left” know that almost none of these people will ever vote and really want to see this problem solved preferably by making the countries that they come from palatable. Believe it or not, that is where they would rather live. If Trump is such a fucking great negotiator, perhaps he could get that done by next week? I would bet that a significant percentage of the problem is related to the failed war on drugs. Perhaps Trump could end it? Nothing deflates a drug lord terrorizing towns like decriminalized drugs. Perhaps this is a fake policy to get votes?

    This is part of the Legend of Uncle Sam which seems to run with both the left and the right. The US is not the root cause or cure of the world’s problems. Are some of the problems or solutions out there our doing, sure, but this magical idea that if the US would just do something and it would all work out is just not realistic. I mean otherwise Obama had 8 years to make Mexico and Central America into a paradise and didn’t. He didn’t because he couldn’t, not because he was capable and chose not to do it; it’s just not in the power of reality. Also, there are a lot more factors than the failed war on drugs in play including unstable governments that experimented with far left ideology, and just corrupt governments in general. While it makes it convenient to somehow prop ourselves up as the forefront of the cause, it’s just not realistic. Marijuana is becoming more legalized so this should have cut down a lot of this. The big problem now is opioid use do you really want to legalize this? We should be fine with the wholesale poisoning of our own citizens? Why?

    Judge Dredd

    Sure, there are scofflaws, but let’s be clear; not all immigrants are equally bad, and these Central Americans are quite possibly the most meek you’ll ever meet. By cobtrast, we do nothing to scores of Russians, Armenians, Chinese, Koreans, etc. that come here solely to be ticks on our backs.

    I expect a crackdown on any immigrant not here legally. Of course south of the border will get the most attention and discussion in politics and in the media simply because there is a clearly defined view of the violation. It’s right there, it’s visible and tangible. Entering the country through the south is relatively easy and one can see it in motion. It’s not that overstaying a visa isn’t just as bad and shouldn’t be dealt with, it’s just that you won’t see mass roundups of people with expired visas. They aren’t crossing in a group. I would agree though 100% that these violators need to be out as well. I couldn’t care less where they came from.

    As for the remainder of your post I agree. If being here is illegal, then providing a job knowing the person is here illegally is contributing to the crime. Crack down on all businesses large, small, and corporate with fines and jail. I don’t see an issue with it. That’s just me though, but I’m willing to bet the majority of Republicans who have had it with the establishment would agree.

  48. The world keeps turning and nothing really changes. The left cling to their self-righteous anger no matter what the right does. The GOP (the right) propose a legislative solution to end the separations. Schumer (the left) flatly rejects it, demanding that Trump use an EO instead. Never mind that an EO is not the proper solution. Fixing legislation is the job of Congress, Mr. Schumer. It is not the President’s job.

    No matter. Trump goes ahead with the EO and the left here on this blog still react in anger.

    This tells me that the left really don’t care about “the children” at all. They only care about optics and power. For the left, it’s all about politics (i.e. demonizing Trump and his supporters). The kids are just pawns.

    The kids were in cages during Obama’s Administration, but we didn’t hear a peep from the left. Trump decides to enforce our existing laws with consistency and the left howl in self-righteous anger, as if the world was ending.

    We separate kids from their parents all the time, such as when parents are convicted of serious crimes, or when military parents are deployed overseas. Why should illegal aliens get special treatment?

    Tragedies happen to kids all the time. Kids are shot do death on a regular basis here in the good old USA. Black youths are shot to death by black gang members and other black youths. The left never utter a peep about that. It’s only when a white person does the shooting that we hear from the left. It’s even louder when it’s a white cop doing his job.

    Kids starve to death all over the world. Kids get caught in crossfire in war zones and in gang-related clashes. Kids are sold into sexual slavery. Kids die of horrible diseases. Kids are physically abused by abusive parents or guardians. Kids are raped and molested. Kids get tortured to death.

    Welcome to planet Earth.

    It’s only when a Republican President chooses to enforce existing laws that the left suddenly spring into action “for the kids”. For all those other tragedies, we get crickets.

    And the left aren’t even really springing into action. Schumer had an opportunity to do so and he turned his back on it. “Springing into action” for the left means nothing more than getting mad and getting loud.

    And getting political.

    Personally, I am not the least bit moved by leftist wailing and gnashing of teeth, nor am I swayed by leftist propaganda. If horrible physiological stuff happens inside of kids when they are separated from their parents, why are we only hearing about this now? Why didn’t we hear about it when we were putting parents in prison for the crimes they committed? Why didn’t we hear about it when we sent military parents overseas? Why are we only hearing about it when it’s the kids of illegal immigrants? And why didn’t we hear about it when this was happening under Obama’s watch?

    Things smell very fishy to me. Everyone here, left or right, can hate on me all they want. I really do not care. This thread has simply reinforced existing stereotypes, as far as I am concerned. Every time someone on the left opens their mouth, it just pushes me further to the right.

  49. No matter. Trump goes ahead with the EO and the left here on this blog still react in anger.

    If you think they’re mad now, just wait until the EO gets struck down by a judge and Trump starts separating families again.

    Then he’ll throw up his hands and say, “Hey, I told you I couldn’t fix it with an EO! It’s up to the obstructionist Democrats to help pass a law!”

    They’ll totally own the problem at that point, not Trump. The fury will be amazing to behold.

    I just can’t tell if this is a trap Trump set for them or they set for themselves.

  50. Marijuana is becoming more legalized so this should have cut down a lot of this. The big problem now is opioid use do you really want to legalize this? We should be fine with the wholesale poisoning of our own citizens? Why?

    All good questions, Section8. Marijuana legalization could help with opioid abuse at least as it pertains to actual pain. It won’t do much for a serious addiction once it has formed. I am a libertarian at heart and really don’t care what people do with their lives for the most part. It is only when things harm other people that it gets difficult. I guess the definition of “harm” varies person to person.

    When we talk about the mess in Central and South America, there is a lot of problems related to drugs and we are the ones doing most of the drugs, so yea we kind of are responsible for this. There is no magic wand we can wave, but we can take responsibility for what part we play. Eliminating drug lords doesn’t work because another one will take its place. Simple economics. Legalization is step towards lessening drug related violence. It would cause pockets of poverty though so it isn’t a magic bullet. Sorry if that is how I put it. I just think that there is something seriously wrong with how we cling to the drug war as if it ever worked at all.

  51. And why didn’t we hear about it when this was happening under Obama’s watch?

    It was reported and bitched about quite a bit in liberal circles. Perhaps it wasn’t in the right wing news outlet’s best interest to tell you about Obama’s mixed bag on immigration that had liberals quite unhappy.

  52. And why didn’t we hear about it when this was happening under Obama’s watch?

    It was reported and bitched about quite a bit in liberal circles.

    To be clear, the “it” that I am talking about is this article that CMNZ posted in the Scandalrama 9 thread. The article is dated June 19, 2018, the same day CMNZ posted it.

    Are you telling me this medical aspect of the issue was being discussed in liberal circles during the Obama Administration?

    Perhaps it wasn’t in the right wing news outlet’s best interest to tell you about Obama’s mixed bag on immigration that had liberals quite unhappy.

    It is being used right now to make Trump look like a monster. I am confident that if this story existed during the Obama years, right-wing news sources would have pounced on it.

  53. If you want to keep up the narrative that it only happens on the left I can’t stop you, but the left was not happy with Obama regarding immigration. I missed that you were talking about a certain document, but most of the complaints being made now were made years ago. It was big gripe back then and is a non-story today.

    Trump owns the issue now just as Obama did back then.

  54. If you want to keep up the narrative that it only happens on the left I can’t stop you, but the left was not happy with Obama regarding immigration.

    I have no reason to doubt that. I was seeking clarification on a specific facet of the overall issue, not trying to “keep up a narrative”.

    Was anybody on the left accusing Obama of causing permanent brain damage to those kids in the cages? That is what the article is basically claiming regarding Trump’s policy. Kids are suffering permanent physiological damage, according to the article. That is the specific point of clarification I was seeking.

    If the answer to my question above is “no”, then I dismiss the article as anti-Trump propaganda, even if it is factually true. The reason is, if it is true for the kids of illegal immigrants, then it is true for the kids of incarcerated parents, and the kids of military parents deployed overseas. If nobody cares about any permanent brain damage those kids might receive, why should anyone care about the brain damage the kids of illegals might receive?

  55. Everyone with a shred of humanity cares about brain damage that anyone gets especially kids in custody for any reason. Do you care about the kids in Flint that got lead poisoning? There is an article about how people that got settlements on a lead poisoning case got scammed by assholes buying their annuities for pennies on the dollar because their brains don’t work right. Just because you may or may not have read about that doesn’t mean it is OK for kids to be treated poorly because they are “illegal”.

  56. As for the remainder of your post I agree. If being here is illegal, then providing a job knowing the person is here illegally is contributing to the crime. Crack down on all businesses large, small, and corporate with fines and jail. I don’t see an issue with it. That’s just me though, but I’m willing to bet the majority of Republicans who have had it with the establishment would agree.

    Thanks for responding with your perspective on it. I’m glad you display the intellectual integrity to want to see illegal immigration enforced thoroughly and fairly.

    I actually am a-ok with parts of getting tough on immigration enforcement. I held my opinion on this until I could get a picture beyond cnn of what was happening. I think it’s very clear this action in particular was cherry picked to play out in the press by the administration, and it was a foolish move.

    Shoring up on illegals I think most, left and right can see common ground in tbh. Picking on Mexicans because that’s the stereotype of an illegal ignores the real issue, and is just theater to me.

  57. Everyone with a shred of humanity cares about brain damage that anyone gets especially kids in custody for any reason.

    Well, you got me there, I guess. Never mind the point I was making. Apparently, it was not important enough to grasp.

  58. Lurking, do you have any missing comments on this thread? I’ve noticed a couple from two days ago that are in the deleted folder. They bypassed moderation. I’ll restore them if they’re supposed to be here.

  59. No need. I did compose a couple of elaborate, explanatory posts, but then figured they would fall on deaf ears, based on the exchange I was currently in.

    So I deleted them and replaced them with the dismissive one I posted. The point I was making was simply ignored. Virtue signaling apparently trumps reason.

  60. Do you care about the kids in Flint that got lead poisoning?

    That’s a great example. That happened under Obama’s watch and got substantial
    media exposure. Was it simply anti-Obama propaganda? Perhaps the MSM was aware of the threat of lead in Flint’s water under the Bush administration but waited until Obama to make a big stink about it? Typical right-wing MSM bias. Obviously.

  61. So I deleted them and replaced them with the dismissive one I posted.

    Very good. I just wanted to make sure the blog isn’t eating anybody’s comments.

  62. Virtue signaling apparently trumps reason.

    Or, more likely, I got just as frustrated with the exchange as you did. The point you are making really isn’t relevant. The obsession that you guys have with bias is perplexing. If you think that I care that poor Donald Trump is being criticized for not fixing something appalling 18 months into his administration you are mistaken. Obama was criticized for wearing a tan suit, having a beer, wearing mom jeans, golfing, etc. He was also criticized for the deficit one month into his administration because “how long are you going to blame Bush?” You have 3-6 more years of this. Get comfortable.

    One of the reasons that I am here is that I would like to see that cycle broken. You will probably not see too many Cheeto and bad combover jokes from me. Maybe a couple if I am drinking. Yes, we criticized Bush relentlessly for things that he did wrong, but also for trivial things. I am on record regretting that, but I am not going to continue to answer for it 10 years later. You got the change that you wanted, but not everyone likes it or wants it. It is up to you to fix it now because you are in charge.

  63. The point you are making really isn’t relevant.

    And further to the right I go.

    It is up to you to fix it now because you are in charge.

    As I stated (and you ignored because it”really isn’t relevant” to you), the GOP proposed a solution and the Democrats rejected it.

    So ignore that again. Nothing is “relevant” to the left unless it is politically expedient. And nobody has “a shred of humanity” until Republicans are “in charge”.

    And further to the right I go.

  64. Obama was criticized for………………………

    Not by the mainstream media, he wasn’t. Not by Hollywood. Not by Universities.

    Only by right-wing outlets, whom the left try to marginalize.

  65. I hate to have to break it to you , but many of what you call “right-wing” outlets are mainstream or at least very easily accessed by anyone that wants to do so. Designating all liberal sites “mainstream” and then complaining that mainstream media is liberal is circular logic. Fox News and most talk radio are not exactly obscure. I don’t watch Fox or Rush, but I know all about the relentless criticism of Obama, so nice try. Everyone read it, heard it, saw it, etc.

    As I said in the DJ thread, half my Facebook news feed is right-wing stuff I disagree with.

    Hollywood is not news. If I pointed you to a right-wing Hollywood movie for “news” you would laugh at me.
    There are universities that are right-leaning, including my own (there isn’t much “liberal” to a security management degree). Again, it is perplexing how much this keeps coming up despite how easy it is for me to find right-wing blather without even trying. You must see a bolus coming at you nearly constantly.

  66. The obsession that you guys have with bias is perplexing.

    Of course it is, because it favors the team you are on.

    I would like to see that cycle broken.

    If that were true, you wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss that bias as “irrelevant”. Telling us that we are “obsessed” with it only perpetuates the cycle.

  67. If that were true, you wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss that bias as “irrelevant”. Telling us that we are “obsessed” with it only perpetuates the cycle.

    That is a fair point, but I just disagree with you. Yea, maybe you had to be a liberal under Obama to see it, but there was zero shortage of negative coverage of Obama. If there is another word than “obsessed”, I will use it, but bias in the public realm is just no longer a problem. You will get me to agree that PC can be a problem, but that isn’t a solely left-wing thing. The right has its own brand of PC and it is just as destructive.

    Breaking the cycle doesn’t mean agreeing with Lurking. It means that I will keep the nipping at Trump’s heels like a fucking Chihuahua over how many buckets of KFC he eats in check.

  68. bias in the public realm is just no longer a problem.

    If you truly believe that, then there is no point in continuing this conversation.

    Like I said, deaf ears.

    And your talk of “breaking the cycle” is just talk.

    Breaking the cycle…..means that I will keep the nipping at Trump’s heels…..

    [laugh] That is the exact opposite of breaking it. It is perpetuating it.

    Have a nice life, and enjoy having the last word.

  69. That is the exact opposite of breaking it. It is perpetuating it.

    Honestly, please read the whole sentence. I said keep it in check. You are asking me to do things that you aren’t willing to do.

  70. Thanks for the clarification, kevinmkr. It makes sense now. I missed the “the”, even though I quoted it.

    [laugh] That is the exact opposite of breaking it. It is perpetuating it.

    I recant, with apologies for misunderstanding.

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: