I’ve been grappling with this illegal immigration issue revolving around splitting up families and placing detained kids in cages. A post on the topic is overdue, and here it is, but it only came after deliberating what there even is to discuss.

As the national debate has dragged on, I’m left with the choice between throwing in with the callous side who is perfectly willing to keep using draconian measures to stem illegal immigration and the cynical one who would encourage this virtual Children’s Crusade of unaccompanied minors to exploit for its own purposes of promoting open borders.

You all suck.

As I’ve evaluated the issue and thought about the best way to approach it, I figured it would be best if I started by determining ahead of time what I won’t do to explain my position on the issue or to discuss it.

First, I’m not going to make light of the issue or minimize what’s happening with these kids.  They’re victims and they have absolutely nothing.  They’re alone, unhappy, and I can’t say for sure what homes they have to go back to.  They’re victims, not criminals.  Not victims of this Administration, mind you.  But victims of the failed societies, weak families, and (in extreme cases) the downright Satanic traffickers who sent them here.

Maybe they’re someone else’s infestation or political football, but not mine.  Other people can do that, but I’m not going to.

What else do I not want to do in this post?  Whataboutisms.  I’m seeing a lot of that out there and it isn’t getting anywhere.  Look, I think playing “whatabout” is fair.  Yes, if Trump is being condemned for enforcing a law that was passed under a president whose family is now criticizing him for doing it it’s perfectly fine to point that out.  It’s also valid to point out the hypocrisy of the press, who ignored the Obama Administration’s use of some of the same practices that the Trump Administration is now doing.

Whataboutisms are fine, but only when they’re used properly.  If you want to claim that Obama is a monster for doing the same things that Trump is now being called one for, then at least give Obama the benefit of the doubt for doing what he thought he had to in a bad situation.

Why did Obama have to detain kids?  Is he a demonic monster?  Well, yeah, but that’s not why.  Illegal immigrants and human traffickers figured out that this was a vulnerability in our own laws.  There are circumstances where we have to accept kids and there are others when it’s necessary to separate them from their parents.  It’s bad optics for those of us who are tough on immigration and helps them achieve their goals.

So why didn’t the laws get changed?  Congress wouldn’t work with Obama because they didn’t trust him.  Because of Satan.    Since the news media was curiously incurious about children being locked in cages and other topics that might have made the Obama Administration look bad, there wasn’t very much public pressure to do anything about it.  Now we have a new president and the media is interested in applying some of that public pressure.

When it comes to the children being in cages, separated from their mommies and daddies, does it really matter who did what four years ago?  No, it doesn’t.  The American people elected Donald Trump partly because we wanted him to deal with this issue.  We wanted to “get tough” on illegal immigration.

Well, putting kids in cages is pretty hardcore, as it goes.  Very Kevin Spacey, as Seth Macfarlane would have it.  And it turns out that the American people are now uncomfortable with being tough and would like to be less tough for a little boy who isn’t one of those MS-13 members we keep hearing about.  Trump and the Republican Congress have to act and what Obama and Bush did or didn’t do is irrelevant to me.

I’ll tell you why.  I’m as anti-illegal immigration as you can be.  I’m highly dubious about the benefits of legal immigration and want it severely limited.  DACA?  Yeah, I agree with Trump.  You have to go back.

I’m tough.  But guess what?  I don’t want kids locked up in cages or separated from their parents unless it’s absolutely necessary and I’m far from convinced that it is.  Nobody has successfully made the case to me that this is all wonderful and good.

“We’re only talking about a small number of minors, WG”, you might say.  I don’t care.  I do not want to see any kids in cages.  One is too many and yes, a confined area is a cage whether it has bars or chain link fencing or those weird circling hoop things that General Zod and his minions were trapped in at the beginning of Superman 2.

For those times that we have to detain children separately, I want them to be in the most comfortable circumstances imaginable.  Whatever money we have to spend to turn every child detainment camp into Disneyland, do it.  I don’t care if the ICE agents all have to dress like Disney princesses and read them bedtime stories every single night using different voices for all of the characters.

We can do better than this.  I’m not defending putting kids in cages or tearing families apart simply because they crossed the border illegally.  The kids are generally blameless and should only be separated from their parents if we’re really going to charge them with felonies, not just to punish them as a deterrent to others (it won’t work anyway).  If I have to be on the side of harshly punishing children for the sins of their parents, a violation of the highest moral law, count me out. Okay?

That’s the last thing that I refuse to do on this post or discussion.  I’m not going to defend the indefensible nor am I going to waste time explaining why I’m not a monster for wanting a strong border.

You know where I stand and I think that this is a good starting point for all of us.  We all want to see the kids out of cages and reunited with their parents, right?  Right.  There’s no need to demonize or anything like that.

We can all start by agreeing that we want to stop kids from being separated from their families and put in cages, one way or another.  Either we change the practices, make it easier for people to immigrate lawfully, or increase the penalties on adults sufficiently to deter illegal immigration.  We can disagree on the methods, but I’m starting with the assumption that nobody likes what’s happening and everybody wants it to stop.

Here’s another piece we all have to understand and agree upon.  All of us that I’m aware of live in First World nations.  As countries in the Third World continue to deteriorate and people have to choose between dying in war and poverty and rolling the dice on crossing our borders, we’re going to see a lot more of them.  This problem not only isn’t going to go away, it’s going to get worse.  Can we agree on that?

I see a couple of my friends have been arguing this issue on the open thread and it’s gone about as badly as it has on every single forum I’ve seen where current events are discussed.  Let’s see how this goes.

Everything that we have to discuss from here is what’s best for managing the human tide.  What’s the best choice for humanity?  What policy proposals have you heard that you like?  There are a couple of measures being discussed in Congress.

Tell me.  What best characterizes your view?  Are you more open borders/easy access or Fortress America?  What should be done with unaccompanied minors and families who show up on our doorstep?  Hey, maybe my assumption is wrong.  Maybe somebody thinks the current policy is good.  Sell me on it.

I feel like we’re all locked in our own little cages and it’s causing a lot of bad feelings.  Doesn’t have to be like that.

I’d like to see a good discussion, but I’m not going to moderate this thread.  I’m only imposing rules on myself for what I won’t do.  This issue is something I feel I have to come to terms with as a Trump voter and someone who defends his Administration, more often than not.  Again, I think we can do better than this.  I just want to figure out how.

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CMNZ

First, I’m not going to make light of the issue or minimize what’s happening with these kids. I thought it was like summer camp? Or were you mocking the comparison? But victims of the failed societies, weak families, If your situation is so shitty that you’re trying to get into the US to escape it, I would say the opposite of weak. Strong and brave to take the risk in the hopes of improving it. I’m left with the choice between throwing in with the callous side who is perfectly willing to keep using draconian measures to stem illegal immigration… Read more »

CMNZ

Here’s another piece we all have to understand and agree upon. All of us that I’m aware of live in First World nations. As countries in the Third World continue to deteriorate and people have to choose between dying in war and poverty and rolling the dice on crossing our borders, we’re going to see a lot more of them. This problem not only isn’t going to go away, it’s going to get worse. Can we agree on that? I agree, and more and more of that will be because of the effects of climate change. And therefore we will… Read more »

CMNZ

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CMNZ

I just want to highlight this right here for everybody. Whatever else you think of CM or his positions, this is a compassionate answer. I can respect that. The vast majority on your side will LOL hard at that. Or is that the intent? Again, it’s hard to tell whether you’re mocking or not anymore. Because if nobody does But nobody can. He’s proven himself utterly untrustworthy. Only a complete fool would trust such a person. My fear is that although much of what Trump does can be reversed by whoever is next, the world would have learnt and won’t… Read more »

This is the intersection of Trump’s cruelty and incompetence. If he was going to establish a zero tolerance policy toward border crossings, he had to do things in advance: hire way more agents, install way more judges and vastly expand facilities. In fact, Ted Cruz’s bill does precisely this (and it’s long overdue; our immigration system has been overwhelmed for a long time). But this is Trump; he decides to do things and doesn’t think through what the consequences are.

CMNZ

I pay you a compliment and that’s your response? As mentioned, I wasn’t 100% convinced that it was a compliment (especially as it was left field and certainly not something that others would agree with, so alerting others to it also raised a flag). I’m used to years of being mocked for such things. But thanks, I now see that it was intended as one. It’s just being human though really. But I guess that IS now a point of difference these days. And you’re doing it on this thread after I made it very clear that I wanted a… Read more »

I don’t think Trump is cruel; he’s just totally tone-deaf on this issue. The optics of this just look bad, and if he can’t or won’t see that then he deserves to be a one-termer. Of course the Left is exploiting this for their own benefit. They’ll reap the votes this can bring them, and afterwards they can get outraged over something else. If they’d put their own egos aside, they’d actually do something about this themselves. There ought to be a reasonable process for these kids and their parents to stay together. With such large numbers, kids are going… Read more »

CMNZ

I agree with you that putting children in cages and separating them from their families is harmful. That’s a huge chunk of the argument between pro and anti Trumpers right there on this issue.

As is the ongoing lying about the issue by Trump and his people, as is suggesting that immigrants ‘infest’ America. Actually putting children in cages is only one facet of it.

Would you like me to delete our comments and have a clean slate for when you return?

I don’t see any need to.

Anyway, as I promised, I won’t monopolise the thread. Happy ‘World Refugee Day’ to you.

I am pretty confident that if these kids were being locked up with their parents(adults they were caught with) the outrage would be just about the same, with different headlines.

Trump locks up kids with sex traffickers.

Kids in unsafe conditions with adults.

Reich Marshal Sessions sending whole families to Walmart Gulags

oh and looks like Strzok got walked out of the FBI building.

I’m going to do the best I can to explain my position – and I’m going to try and do it without being a snarky bastard. but I don’t have a great track record on that, so apologies in advance. Everything that we have to discuss from here is what’s best for managing the human tide. What’s the best choice for humanity? What policy proposals have you heard that you like? There are a couple of measures being discussed in Congress. To me this is the weirdest thing about the whole anti-Globalism movement. The (alt?) right seems to think that… Read more »

I just want to highlight this right here for everybody. Whatever else you think of CM or his positions, this is a compassionate answer. I can respect that. Sorry, but I have little patience for someone 6.5 thousand miles away wagging his haughty sanctimonious finger at me (America) and telling me how I should address my problems, problems which do not affect him or anyone he knows. I guess I could follow suit and show my compassion by bemoaning the plight of those suffering in his nation and remind him how terrible his people are for turning their backs on… Read more »

CMNZ

Told ya.

6,525 miles. Tell me you looked that up?!

Meanwhile….in the United States of Self-Parody….
https://twitter.com/FLOTUS/status/1009222291887218693

CMNZ

I guess I could follow suit and show my compassion by bemoaning the plight of those suffering in his nation and remind him how terrible his people are for turning their backs on the poor, homeless and disenfranchised;

https://thestandard.org.nz/new-zealands-most-shameful-secret-we-have-normalised-child-poverty/

Absolutely. There’s a reason we replaced that centre-right government. It was disgraceful. Glad you’re on board Rich.

CMNZ

Never delete anything.

and I’m going to try and do it without being a snarky bastard. but I don’t have a great track record on that Nah, your application of snark is usually timely, just enough for taste. The (alt?) right Do you think there are any alt-right members here? IMHO nationalism is just shouting at the tides. We have different definitions of nationalism. Nationalism for me embraces the rule of law, a love of country and an obligation to be a good citizen; none of that is antithetical to immigration. Do you mean “isolationism”? but it’s not like the left actively has… Read more »

6,525 miles. Tell me you looked that up?! I was going to guess at 5,000 miles but I didn’t want to be wrong by so much that the central premise lost it’s meaning, so yes, I did look it up. Argh. You’re proving his point about what you guys would say. I wish you wouldn’t bash him for challenging a point that I made, not him. I call ’em as I see ’em, and I don’t think I was proving any of his points, just his qualifications for making them. Glad you’re on board Rich. TBH, I don’t know enough… Read more »

Told ya.

Yeah, you did.

And both of you missed the whole point of my comment, I expected one but not the other.

For migrants, I’m good with work permits IF we can guarantee that they will not vote, won’t get any form of welfare, and any babies they have while they’re here won’t give them a foothold to permanent residency. That would get the ball rolling for me. For my information – can I just ask why you hold this position? (unless I’ve got it wrong) If a migrant qualifies to immigrate into the US, and has a job and (presumably) pays taxes – why shouldn’t they vote/get welfare/become citizens? In fact, isn’t it this ‘halfway house’ system that’s created the whole… Read more »

CMNZ

“NEW: I just spoke with the former head of US Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE) – He tells me that he expects hundreds of separated children will never be reunited with their parents. They will be lost in the system. Orphaned by the US Govt’.”

https://twitter.com/JProskowGlobal/status/1009119915348021249?s=19

Any parent anywhere would consider this to be horrific.

Sorry, but I have little patience for someone 6.5 thousand miles away wagging his haughty sanctimonious finger at me (America) and telling me how I should address my problems, problems which do not affect him or anyone he knows. I feel the same about you (the right). Decades of sanctimony and fake morality has worn a hole in my patience for Republican “family values” as I watch people rationalize putting kids in cages. Thrill, thank you for the well thought out post about the immorality of this. We actually aren’t terribly far on this ideologically, but I am more with… Read more »

We CANNOT expect the public or Congress to think rationally while there are images of lonely and scared kids locked in cages, away from their mothers. It needs to be taken out of the equation if reason is going to work here.

THIS we can agree on. Trump can sign an EO to end this right now. Only an imbecile would take it to court to challenge him, not that we are short on those. And, yes, I would foster a child if it were an option.

Decades of sanctimony and fake morality has worn a hole in my patience for Republican “family values” as I watch people rationalize putting kids in cages. So many fallacies with that statement, where to begin? You do realize that the infamous photo of kids sleeping in cages was on the Obama watch, right? Do you have any evidence at all that there are folks out there that support “putting kids in cages”? Does anyone backing the rule of law argument in this dispute support “putting kids in cages”.?quit it, that is just silly. The issue here is the separation of… Read more »

Trump is supposedly signing something. If it keeps the families together that should tone it down. Also, this is not a right/left issue or even a Republican/Democrat issue. Many folks that do use the guidance of “family values” are appalled at the situation at the border, but that didn’t stop you from smearing them anyway with one broad stroke. When you paint with broad strokes, you can expect it back. You have similarly smeared the left several times with broad strokes. I apologize for doing so, but I have a disheartening number of friends and family on Facebook defending this… Read more »

Trump has a remarkable ability to move the needle and force action when issues requiring some type of action have stagnated. It’s interesting that in spite of multiple examples to this effect, so many people claim he doesn’t think through consequences or that he is ignorant of the effect of his actions. Our immigration system is broken, has been for decades, and has been going off the rails as the cartels and gangs have worked to overload it in recent years. People on the left have deliberately encouraged lawlessness, because it benefits them politically. They aren’t interested in a practical… Read more »

People on the left have deliberately encouraged lawlessness, because it benefits them politically. They aren’t interested in a practical solution or compromise, they just want to fan the flames so they can continue to win votes and support, and distract from other issues that may go against them (e.g. FBI corruption). Or otherwise, their obstinacy is them being coy about their real belief that we simply shouldn’t have borders, which they know if they came right out and said it, it would be a complete loser.

More broad strokes.

but I have a disheartening number of friends and family on Facebook defending this appalling shit Defending what “shit”, putting kids in cages? I doubt it. Are they standing up for the rule of law yet lamenting the familial conditions at the border? Has any of these friends and family members actually supported putting kids in cages? The simple fact of the matter is that children are placed in tent encampments while their parents are being processed. Of course they should not be separated, but the “kids in cages” meme is so over the top. You have similarly smeared the… Read more »

In retrospect I can see that your “family values” button is as pronounced as my “foreigners need to stay out of our business” button. So apology accepted as hopefully mine was and we can move on.

So apology accepted as hopefully mine was and we can move on. Let’s do so! Apology accepted. I am not really interested (and you are probably not either) in bickering. I do have triggers, but I do not easily remain in an aggravated state. But here is the difference, so far from what I’ve seen We are talking about broad strokes, and I am sorry, but the left isn’t a monolith no matter how many times you say that they are. Has any of these friends and family members actually supported putting kids in cages? I must have a unique… Read more »

CMNZ

‘Gonna have a lot of happy people’

FFS. What a feckless cunt.

And just like that, it’s over.

Well, we have found at least one definition of “too far”: babies changing their own diapers in a cage.

CMNZ

John Sandweg, former acting director of ICE under President Obama, told NBC News. The lack of a reunification protocol could lead to “permanent separation” of parent and child, he said. “You could be creating thousands of immigrant orphans in the U.S. that one day could become eligible for citizenship when they are adopted,” Sandweg said on NBC News. “I think we’re going to see hundreds of cases where the children are permanently separated from their parents, becoming wards of the United States,” he said in an interview with Global News. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/06/reuniting-families-separated-at-the-border-wont-be-easy.html For most, this would be a low point (how… Read more »

CMNZ

Well, we have found at least one definition of “too far”: babies changing their own diapers in a cage.

I’m sure they’ll find a way to get that bar lowered. They’re not even halfway through this term.

I remember at one flat I lived in, we had an infestation and got a professional to get rid of it, but it just came back about a year later.

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