As what Peter Zeihan calls “the Disorder” fully manifests, Trump accurately calls out the stupidity of NATO’s continued existence.

The Republican president, in Brussels for the NATO summit, took a swipe at Germany for supporting a new pipeline for Russian gas, saying at a pre-summit meeting: “We’re supposed to be guarding against Russia and Germany goes out and pays billions and billions of dollars a year to Russia.”

This…so much THIS.  We offer unconditional military protection to Germany and wage proxy wars against Russia on its behalf.  In return, Germany refuses to pay its alliance dues and maintain adequate military forces to help defend against Russia and buys its energy from Russia, the country we’re ostensibly protecting it from.  It’s senseless.

I had brought up this same point about a month ago in a conversation on the topic.  If Trump is ready to break NATO apart, good.  Alliances are, and should be, temporary and the temporary threat that we were temporarily defending Europe from long ago stopped being a threat to us.  The Germans aren’t even maintaining the pretense that Russia is a threat to them either.

H/T: West Virginia Rebel

29 comments

  1. I find it hilarious that the talking heads are loosing their shit over this.

    A few years ago, during a cold snap The Russians contemplated shutting off GAS to parts of eastern Europe if they didnt pay the new rates the Russians wanted.

    If Russia is such a dangerous foe, you know big bad russia staling a US election, then why put yourself on the hook by becoming dependent on their gas?IF Russia isnt a dangerous foe, then Why NATO> Why are you so afraid of the US pulling forces out?

  2. Even if you think NATO can and should be saved, here’s a good read on what needs to happen.

    http://nationalinterest.org/feature/strategic-reset-nato-25396

    In addition, the United States should candidly inform the European NATO members that the larger share of these agreed upon capabilities must come from them. We must explain that geopolitical realities require the United States to augment our own defense commitments in other priority regions, especially the Western Pacific. They must also understand that the American public expects wealthy countries to defend themselves principally on their own, with the United States playing a supporting role on an as-needed basis.

  3. 97-2. Once again, you are either a tiny extremist viewpoint that is not shared by America as a whole, or you are in the majority and grossly misrepresented by your senate and congress.

    America is going to go on, business as usual. I’m starting to believe that trump’s aides go in before these summits and inform everyone in attendance that trump is going to give them a hard time because his hillbilly isis coalition adores these pedantic shit fits on the public stage, but to rest assured that it’s just for the ratings.

    Abandoning NATO might be a discussion if Russia was a rehabilitated, peaceful nation. It’s just the wishful thinking of a wild eyed lunatic to abandon an alliance in the face of clear and unmistakable Russian aggression. It is FACT that Russia supplied arms and support to the annex of Crimea. It is a FACT that Russia interfered in our election.

    Whether that interference is decisive or not is the only debateable viewpoint now.

    Russia fucked with the Ukraine and they fucked with us. The outcome may have favored your political preference, but that doesn’t disappear the fucking. Anyone smart would realize in the face of a threat we’re stronger with allies, and NATO are our allies, not hillbilly isis wet dream of shitting the bed and jacking off putin.

  4. Once again, you are either a tiny extremist viewpoint that is not shared by America as a whole,

    That’s because the country as a whole is complacent and doesn’t understand that Europe demands our unconditional security guarantee to “protect it from Russia” while it skimps on paying its dues to subsidize their own welfare states. Then they go and buy energy from Russia anyway.

    This arrangement is bullshit and I’m glad that Americans are starting to realize how fucked it is.

    Sorry your girl lost the election so you don’t get the Russian war you have such a mysterious boner for.

  5. It is a FACT that Russia interfered in our election.

    And?

    ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:

    This is hardly the first time a country has tried to influence the outcome of another country’s election. The U.S. has done it, too, by one expert’s count, more than 80 times worldwide between 1946 and 2000. That expert is Dov Levin of Carnegie Mellon University. I asked him to tell me about one election where U.S. intervention likely made a difference in the outcome.

    DOV LEVIN: One example of that was our intervention in Serbia, Yugoslavia in the 2000 election there. Slobodan Milosevic was running for re-election, and we didn’t want him to stay in power there due to his tendency, you know, to disrupts the Balkans and his human rights violations.

    So we intervened in various ways for the opposition candidate, Vojislav Kostunica. And we gave funding to the opposition, and we gave them training and campaigning aide. And according to my estimate, that assistance was crucial in enabling the opposition to win.

    SHAPIRO: How often are these interventions public versus covert?

    LEVIN: Well, it’s – basically there’s about – one-third of them are public, and two-third of them are covert. In other words, they’re not known to the voters in the target before the election.

    SHAPIRO: Your count does not include coups, attempts at regime change. It sounds like depending on the definitions, the tally could actually be much higher.

    LEVIN: Well, you’re right. I don’t count and discount covert coup d’etats like the United States did in Iran in 1953 or in Guatemala in 1954. I only took when the United States is trying directly to influence an election for one of the sides. Other types of interventions – I don’t discuss. But if we would include those, then of course the number could be larger, yeah.

    SHAPIRO: How often do other countries like Russia, for example, try to alter the outcome of elections as compared to the United States?

    LEVIN: Well, for my dataset, the United States is the most common user of this technique. Russia or the Soviet Union since 1945 has used it half as much. My estimate has been 36 cases between 1946 to 2000. We know also that the Chinese have used this technique and the Venezuelans when the late Hugo Chavez was still in power in Venezuela and other countries.

  6. Hell, lots of countries interfere in our elections. I wonder why Judge doesn’t care about the interference in the 2016 election by British and Ukrainian nationals. Another unexplained mystery.

    Honestly, some people must have their pussy hats pulled down over their eyes if they don’t see how ludicrous this all is.

  7. Honestly, some people must have their pussy hats pulled down over their eyes if they don’t see how ludicrous this all is.

    oh they see it, they just dont want to accept it

  8. My question to the leftist folks here. If the Russians took over the US today, what would they take away from this nation that you don’t already despise or are willing to give up? I mean the essence of this nation, not some national park or land mass. The whole foundation of the government of this nation was created by evil white hillbillies, capitalism is evil (and white), Christians are evil (and mostly white). No, I’m not religious, but it is the largest religion here, and hardly the threat that ISIS is, but no matter it’s fun and stylish to try to draw some bullshit connection anyhow. We all get it. Everything about this country is white and evil and did I mention white. Turns out the real Nazis weren’t the ones shooting the bullets into the hillbilly Americans storming the beaches, but are actually American bakers and cake decorators in the corn fields of the Midwest (and thank you for your service in keeping them in check. Very brave.). Just curious why I should look upon you guys to “save” my country from the Russians when you’d be just as content burning the flag as you would be in waving it.

    As for Russian interference? BFD. They did not hack the system and who gives a crap about postings on the Internet. You have a big time foreign toll here who feels it’s his duty to tell you how to vote, and how our policy should be both foreign and domestic. To top it off we’ve been selling our souls to China which is a much bigger potential threat. Both GOP and Democrats are guilty.

    And WG you’re right on about getting out of NATO. I think there are a lot more people that would be fine with putting that old agreement to bed than our powerbroker establishment would care to admit. In fact they’ve made it clear they couldn’t care less what anyone thinks. I mean look who they offered up as their flagship candidates. Hillary and Jeb. Yes, the “knowledgeable” leadership is that out of touch and they still don’t get it or are in denial, but it’s our job to vote them in retirement. We don’t have time for them to get through their 5 step program to come to terms with reality.

  9. To clarify. As for the hacking that was referring to the voting systems, not emails and such.

  10. This is truly an alternate political universe we’re in, where you trumpaloa have gone on record saying that trump was “not a conservative, but favored by the Christian fundamentalists because he is a strongman.”

    What Russia would usher in, in an invasion would really favor the trump cucks political stances over anything the left has espoused as of late. You’d no longer have to gerrymander election districts, gone would be the separation of powers (something that trump can’t stop saying he despises), and there’d be no need for you to have nail biting and controversial stunts of power in between a constant trend toward liberalism.

    Think about it, you’d be in hillbilly heaven! Bootlicking, oppressive social laws (remember, Russia demonizes gays and often kills them), and dick riding state media outlets would be premium traits. You’d rise in the ranks very quickly!

    As for us more pros productive, and innovative states with skilled labor, they’d no longer be a threat to your repressive and marginally skilled states with almost non-existent gdp. You’d be able to enact all kinds of pogroms and kulaks to stifle innovation and slow society down to that pace where it was comfortable for you in the factories.

    I hate to stoop so low, but I dare say maybe this representative democracy, or republic, or whatever you’d classify this nation you despise so much when it is diverse and opinionated, is not the place for you. The plains of Crimea are being depopulated as we speak, filled with ethnic Russians to tilt the political scales. Maybe you could sing “home on the range” in Russia, the land you yearn for politically but just can’t admit it yet.

    Besides, the next liberal wave is undoubtedly going to be brutal to the conservative movement, stomping on your backs and squeezing the tears out of you to fertilize the vegan soil. It will be a new McCarthy era, and since the universe is now inverted it will be liberals knocking on your door and asking you who’s team you’re playing for.

  11. I’ll give it a go:

    The whole foundation of the government of this nation was created by evil white hillbillies,

    That is not what I believe. Haven’t you seen Hamilton? 🙂

    capitalism is evil (and white),

    That is not what I believe. I believe that capitalism has done more than anything to promote progression in the world. I just disagree with you on how capitalism should be managed. I believe that in a capitalistic society, it makes societal (and economic) sense to regulate in order to account for externalities, and to use some of the capital for upkeep of the society within which the system operates.

    Christians are evil (and mostly white). No, I’m not religious, but it is the largest religion here, and hardly the threat that ISIS is, but no matter it’s fun and stylish to try to draw some bullshit connection anyhow.

    That’s not what I believe. And even if it was then it wouldn’t matter because of the supposed separation of church and state. The songs that someone sings on a. Sunday morning make no difference., If those songs and stories are made the basis of policy, then we have a problem.

    We all get it. Everything about this country is white and evil and did I mention white.

    Not what I believe (although I’m against people who want (any country) to be only white. And by the way, it’s not that II think multiculturalism is super-awesome (although I kinda do) because multiculturalism is here, it’s what the future is going to look like, and we need to work out a way to operate in the new world rather than just whingeing about it.

    Turns out the real Nazis weren’t the ones shooting the bullets into the hillbilly Americans storming the beaches, but are actually American bakers and cake decorators in the corn fields of the Midwest (and thank you for your service in keeping them in check. Very brave.

    This is not what I believe.

    Just curious why I should look upon you guys to “save” my country from the Russians when you’d be just as content burning the flag as you would be in waving it.

    This gets into the ‘patriotism’ argument that we hashed to death during the Iraq war. Loving your country doesn’t mean unquestioningly assuming that everything about the country is 100% awesome. The right has spent the past eight years complaining about everything the country is doing, and the direction it’s going – but that wasn’t unpatriotic. I’m not trying to provoke – but it’s lazy to simply assume malcontent to the other sides view, and I’m pretty sure the opposite of what WG wants for this blog. I don’t think you;’re evil, and (hopefully) you don’t think I’m evil – thats why we can have a conversation.

    As for Russian interference? BFD. They did not hack the system and who gives a crap about postings on the Internet.

    You can’t have it both ways – you can’t complain about CNN #fakenews and then dismiss what Russia did in their disinformation campaign. Either this stuff works or it doesn’t (spoiler alert, it does. Else no one would spend anything on advertising or PR).

    And if Putin’s goal is destabilisation of western powers (which seems to be the case) do you think that he’s not going to try and interfere in another election – and in favour of the status quo? I mean the best case scenario for Putin is for the US to swing wildly between Trumpism and (say) Bernie Sandersism every four years. If I were the Trump Tower IT guy, I’d be making sure my servers were super secure.

    So what would a Russian ‘invasion’ look like. Well assuming you’re not talking about Tanks rolling down fifth avenue – it’s not necessarily about what they’d take (although I’m sure Alaska would head back to the motherland) it’s more like greater state control over everyday life. Less oversight of corruption. More consolidation of power in oligarchs and single personalities. Governmental control over what is allowed.

    Although more what Russia’s goal is would be to get back to a pre-cold war power base. Europe has been keeping Russia in check for a while – and Putin is keen to expand his power, land, control etc. So if you’re keen to be dealing with a modernised China at the same time as a Russia with expanded power, and no checks on further expansion, then, whoop.

    re: NATO

    The only country that has ever invoked article 5 was the US (after 9/11). So characterising it as ‘unconditional security from the US’ isn’t quite accurate. Not everything is about you yaknow. Capitalism (and thus the US) thrives when nations are tense, but no actively fighting each other. Leaving the agreement would make it much easier for anyone to attack anyone else. It would make all US overseas interests more vulnerable, (everyone else more vulnerable actually) and basically destabilise the globe. I get that as a superpower that the US sees itself as untouchable, and therefore the main payer for the agreement – but with the rise of terrorism, cyber warfare and of course nuclear proliferation anyone’s a target, and how many friends are you making right now?

    Also – no one’s ‘paying’. It’s not like a club that people pay their dues – thats disingenuous. It’s an agreement to spend at least 2% of each countries GDP on military. The US doesn’t see a penny of the UK’s money. What Trump is complaining about is that Britain, France, and Germany’s military isn’t big enough.

  12. “And if Putin’s goal is destabilisation of western powers (which seems to be the case) do you think that he’s not going to try and interfere in another election – and in favour of the status quo?”

    Of course he’s going to try to interfere so are plenty of other countries. Nothing new. Maybe new as far as interfering with new resources but that’s it. What I want to know is if Trump is a Russian plant don’t you think it’s a little worrisome that the FBI and CIA are basically keystone cops at this point? Biggest threat ever a Russian plant and he’s still in office? Or let’s face fact is there is and never was anything there. As for Russian propaganda swaying the election if you want to believe that, fine. The left had nearly all the media and an army of comedy clowns on nearly every channel all spouting the same lines in trying to shame tactic to get the vote their way. If a few Facebook posts canceled all that out then Putin really isn’t the problem for you guys. You might want to dig a little deeper.

    “Not what I believe (although I’m against people who want (any country) to be only white.”

    This seems to be an ongoing issue. See many on the left (not necessarily you) seem to have it in their head that having at least some sort of regulated immigration system = all white and racist. I’m fine with inviting immigrants. Nearly everyone is fine with that, we have been for decades and there are lots of benefits. But just like having people over to your house, you have rules and filters, and you select who comes, stays, and goes, and I bet you even have a door you lock on occasion. It’s no different with a country. There’s no reason it needs to be a free for all. We did amnesty in this country before during Regan with assurances from our “leaders” that we’d have better controls. We’ll here we are back to even larger amnesty. Basically the uncontrolled immigration is bad, but what really pisses me off is the bullshit from the politicians. I’m not alone, hence electing a total asshole to deal with the other more refined elected assholes (to note immigration isn’t the only issue for me, and I’m certainly not happy with Trump on a number of things such as spending). I’m just curious though, if an African country wished to keep its black dominance and keep its culture dominant or an Asian country chose to keep its Asian dominance or a Hispanic country, etc. Would you have a problem with that?

    “The only country that has ever invoked article 5 was the US (after 9/11). So characterising it as ‘unconditional security from the US’ isn’t quite accurate. Not everything is about you yaknow.”

    This is true, but you’re discounting the fact that we put a lot of effort into Europe not being attacked in the first place, hence no need to enact anything, and of course that was all for self-serving purposes I’m sure. Either way to me the NATO debate is a waste as I’m all for getting out. If the narrative needs to be that it will stop us from taking advantage of you guys fine by me. The end result is all I care about. My mind was made up after 9/11. Seemed Europe decided we were a bunch of evil aholes, and regardless of the view on the Iraq war (which I did not want us to be there), the response from some of our “allies” and their populace was a bit over the top. Which is fine, but I can assure you Putin was not the one who soured me on being committed to Europe. Time to move on.

    “You can’t have it both ways – you can’t complain about CNN #fakenews and then dismiss what Russia did in their disinformation campaign. Either this stuff works or it doesn’t (spoiler alert, it does. Else no one would spend anything on advertising or PR).”

    This isn’t both ways because this is apples and oranges comparison. Russian propaganda is what it is, which is bullshit. The internet is full of bullshit. To pretend this is some new found discovery is laughable. CNN as well as the other major media outlet are supposed to be a reputable news source. They literally sell news as a product advertising themselves as reputable sources of information. They don’t get the same freedom to screw up as bullshit blogs or bullshit sites or bullshit foreign propaganda outfits. But if they want to be on the same standards as these other sources of bullshit then it should be stated as such.

    Judge. I read your post as well. Wow. I’ll let you sober up and try again tomorrow.

  13. The whole foundation of the government of this nation was created by evil white hillbillies, capitalism is evil (and white), Christians are evil (and mostly white).

    I’ve mentioned before that I’m only a couple of generations removed from Ozark hillbillies myself. It’s a point of pride. Hillbillies are certainly more trustworthy people and loyal Americans than elitist, degenerate neocons living on the coasts who place the best interests of Europe over their own country.

  14. You can’t have it both ways – you can’t complain about CNN #fakenews and then dismiss what Russia did in their disinformation campaign.

    I don’t really agree with that Cress. There’s a world of difference between a MSM News organization, who claims to be impartial, repeatedly promoting stories that are one sided, and often false that later have to be retracted, and some idiot sharing a link to an article from “trumprox.com!” or “iamnotrussian.com” on Facebook even if the Russian government itself was behind those websites. It’s not like Russia took over Fox News, and started promoting fake pro-trump propaganda during the election…or did they????

  15. There’s a world of difference between a MSM News organization, who claims to be impartial, repeatedly promoting stories that are one sided, and often false that later have to be retracted, and some idiot sharing a link to an article from “trumprox.com!” or “iamnotrussian.com” on Facebook even if the Russian government itself was behind those websites.

    I’m amazed that cress is even inviting the comparison between a hostile foreign government waging a misinformation campaign against the US and what CNN does every week. That’s remarkable by itself in that it suggests that both Russia AND CNN should be punished.

    That’d be a fun debate to have.

  16. Although more what Russia’s goal is would be to get back to a pre-cold war power base. Europe has been keeping Russia in check for a while – and Putin is keen to expand his power, land, control etc. So if you’re keen to be dealing with a modernised China at the same time as a Russia with expanded power, and no checks on further expansion, then, whoop.

    This is a really good debate that we’ve never had: How powerful is Russia and how much of a threat is it, really?

    If your opinion is that Russia is a dangerous hegemonic power, then seeing some of us pooh-pooh what it does is probably confusing. See, to me Russia being reduced to waging war by promoting hashtags on Twitter is evidence of its weakness, not any sort of mortal threat to anything.

    It kills me that some of the same people who complain about Russia sowing division in Western societies then turn around and do it themselves by embracing people like David Hogg or jumping in on NotMyPresident hashtags. We don’t need Russia’s help to be divisive. We’re good at it already. Nothing they’re doing matters.

    Militarily, Russia is screwed. They’re not a great power and they’re not even a rising one. They’re dying and desperately trying to rebuild a defensible border on all sides like they had during the Soviet Union before their army is fully degraded and there are no longer enough men of fighting age to draft.

    They aren’t going to conquer Europe or retake Alaska. Instead, they’ll be lucky if they still have as much territory in ten years as they do now. Russia is a vastly overblown threat. It’s a nuisance in places, but we’re far better off leveraging it to help encircle the real problem: China.

    I don’t apologize for Putin or his oligarchy. I just don’t think he’s a threat to the US (or even Europe, if they take their collective defense seriously) and that it would be obvious if we could move past our outdated strategy and stop doing stupid things that we keep doing only because it’s the way we’ve always done it.

    The game has changed.

  17. Fascinating timing on this. The day after Strzok’s disastrous hearing and before Trump’s meeting with Putin. If the DOJ has indictments that clearly show the Russians gave the documents to Wikileaks.

    Notably, there’s no collusion with Trump.

  18. Rosenstein just now: No American citizen knowingly cooperated with the 12 Russians. The Russians also did not manage to affect the vote.

  19. Rosenstein just now: No American citizen knowingly cooperated with the 12 Russians. The Russians also did not manage to affect the vote.

    Man, Dredd just single handedly filled my tumbler.

    It was great reading all of the responses under Jake Tapper’s tweet about the indictment incoming. “Trump Jr. is gonna get his!” and “Finally! Trump will have to ask for asylum in Russia, that’s why they did it now!”

    Err…

  20. Of course he’s going to try to interfere so are plenty of other countries. Nothing new.

    Can you expand? I know the Shapiro interview, but what other countries have interfered to the same extent? If a foreign power is actively supporting a political party then you lose your sovereignty. Aside from the Trump issue, I’m puzzled as to why the people are so lax about foreign powers manipulating the political process. You’re fine with it because it’s your guy – but what about the time when it’s not?

    What I want to know is if Trump is a Russian plant don’t you think it’s a little worrisome that the FBI and CIA are basically keystone cops at this point? Biggest threat ever a Russian plant and he’s still in office?

    Do I need to pull out the liberals favourite chart about how long these investigations take? Or the list of guilty pleas and indictments? I’m not saying that Trump is definitely guilty (although obviously I’d say that he’s at least suspicious) but getting to the bottom of the matter is hugely important (not just for the US by the way) and needs to be done properly.

    But just like having people over to your house, you have rules and filters, and you select who comes, stays, and goes, and I bet you even have a door you lock on occasion. It’s no different with a country.

    Here’s the dirty truth – for decades, this has been the line, but not the reality. Because so much of the corporate economy has depended on immigrant labour, so the US has actively advertised itself as a place to come and make a better life, and there have been minimal consequences for companies who offer this to immigrants. A pox on both their houses, but the immigration system created (and I’d argue encouraged) an underclass of technically illegal immigrants, who are hand waved by corporate America. Now on one hand Trump is complaining about jobs being offshore to underpaid workers, whilst also wanting to crack down on the underpaid workers in the US. (Not just the US by the way…)

    And in terms of the ‘house’ analogy – what exactly is lacking in your immigration system? You have rules and filters. Maybe you could increase the size of the lock (A wall won’t do shit though…) and that’s something the democrats have offered, but it’s been turned down. If there’s an issue that fires you up to vote, but never seems to be solved, then it’s worth taking a harder look at the issue…

    They literally sell news as a product advertising themselves as reputable sources of information.

    That’s what the Russian Disinformation campaign did. They literally created fake websites that looked like real news websites. Either disinformation works or it doesn’t (spoiler alert, it does. See Bud Light)

    The end result is all I care about.

    Fair enough. But remember, this isn’t just about ‘can the US depends on the UK navy if they need to invade Iran’ – no one has benefitted more from a (relatively) peaceful world than the US. If (say) France invades Sweden, kicking off a European conflict, sure the US could sit it out, but it would wreck global trade, US overseas security and intelligence, and would probably create a whole lotta refugees looking to find somewhere to create a better life. Your house is better off if the neighbours all get along with each other.

  21. cress, I need your input on the conversation in the DJ thread, if you can look into it.

  22. Aside from the Trump issue, I’m puzzled as to why the people are so lax about foreign powers manipulating the political process. You’re fine with it because it’s your guy – but what about the time when it’s not?

    Hmmm. Circa 2011…China puts up fake websites, and fake advertisements in support of Obama, or negative of Romney. They make fake Facebook accounts, Twitter accounts, and post the crap all over creation.

    That barely raises a blip on my politic radar. I pretty much expect other countries to do it because we’ve done it. We’ve done it with open support, and subversive support. We’ve funded opposition parties. We’ve funded and provided military muscle for actual coup d’états FFS. What are some fake news stories?

    Honestly, as divided as this country is, and as divisive as the last election was, how many votes do you think were actually swung from one side to the other because of a fake website created by the Russians? I think I could probably count those votes on one hand, and I probably wouldn’t need any fingers to do it.

    The only problem I have with this situation is the Russian government apparently sanctioning the hacking or attempted hacking of not only the DNC, but also Conservative organizations, and I would imagine our own government departments. But then, I’m sure we do the same thing, so what do we do about it? Declare war? More sanctions? I suppose some votes could have been swung based on what was released in the DNC emails, but again, I’d bet it was very few, if any.

  23. “Do I need to pull out the liberals favourite chart about how long these investigations take?”

    Um no need. Here’s the deal, if Trump is a Russian plant the the CIA and FBI still can’t figure it out in what would be the tantamount to a coup on our government that is a HUGE problem. It is up there in the *worst* of possible problems. It’s not about your favorite charts. The point of having a defense and intelligence agencies is to deal with this type of threat immediately, basically taking action asap which would have stopped him from even being sworn into office much less spending years in it.

    “Because so much of the corporate economy has depended on immigrant labour, so the US has actively advertised itself as a place to come and make a better life, and there have been minimal consequences for companies who offer this to immigrants.”

    No argument there, I’m fine with sweeping crackdowns on business and they should be held accountable with fines, jail, etc.. It’s in effect providing sanctuary to an illegal act. This has been useful to both sides though. It’s similar to debt and spend. The politicians love it because the effects are deferred. The people love it because they aren’t taxed. The problem remains hidden until it explodes. Same with the immigration issue. We can keep raising minimum wages, have outrageous benefit packages such as in CA, but the backdoor loop is just to hire illegals or outsource. So everything looks good from the “caring” politician standpoint, and you get a back door economy that can remain a dirty little secret. Both the left and the right politicians love it but in the meantime you have economic apartheid, standards really don’t improve for most, smaller businesses go under and you’re left with mega giant corporations. Everything the left claim they despise.

    “and that’s something the democrats have offered, but it’s been turned down.”

    It has to be a good offer, and let me be clear I have not been impressed with the GOP either on this though the years. More of the same of amnesty first then we’ll do something, we promise, is no longer an offer. I would think by now it’s pretty clear that people have had enough of the politicians saying let’s do what we want first, then we promise we’ll do what you want. Not just with immigration but with everything. The wall will never happen at least not across the entire border, and I think most people are aware of that and knew that going in. You ask for a wall you get a better lock and that’s what is being done here. I lived in CA most of my life, I voted for prop 187 as did a solid majority of Californians only to see the court turn it down and the Governor at the time, Davis, decided not to appeal. The people living in CA didn’t just suddenly become liberal to create a solid blue state. You just simply replace the population to stack it how you want to the point of where now if people like Judge has his way I’ll be getting knocks on my door. I don’t want that happening to the rest of this country.

    “Either disinformation works or it doesn’t (spoiler alert, it does. See Bud Light)”

    I think Zurvan explained it well a couple of times, better than I did, so I’ll stick with that.

    “Your house is better off if the neighbours all get along with each other.”

    I just want out of NATO, I have no interest in encouraging Europe into battle. But here’s the deal. When conservatives were making the point we need NATO to keep Europe from doing another Chamberlain and not nipping problems in the bud, and we took up the job of nipping problems in the bud, weren’t we arrogant aholes for saying you need us to keep you out of trouble? Now you’re basically saying you need us to keep you out of trouble. Personally I think you guys can handle your own issues. As for France invading Sweden, France would surrender before Sweden could declare that they won’t pick a side. So nothing would really happen there.

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